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I'm tired of mandating technical progress via decrees

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patrick.mannion
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re: I'm tired of mandating technical progress via decrees
patrick.mannion   8/23/2011 11:49:32 AM
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This is a really great discussion guys. There have been a few references to transmission losses vs locally generated power via gasoline. But it's not a fair comparison. What about the 'transmission losses' associated with getting that gallon of gasoline from deep under the earth to your gas tank? I haven't been able to find a direct comparison in efficiency, but I'm pretty sure it'll change the nature of the argument here. As for government, well, I'm all for free enterprise but now and again the gov' gets it right. We really wanted to get to the moon, and it helped there. We really wanted to protect our kids, but it took the government to make us use seatbelts. Right now, it seems the gov has lost it's way, and so have the people.

gsdg90
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re: I'm tired of mandating technical progress via decrees
gsdg90   8/18/2011 8:48:19 PM
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UnderboatBoy, Even with 50% transmission loss, you still come out way ahead by central power generation.

Bert22306
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CEO
re: I'm tired of mandating technical progress via decrees
Bert22306   8/18/2011 8:46:01 PM
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Yes, but the counter argument is that legislations such as the California zero emission vehicle (ZEV) mandates have had to be rewritten countless times. Because they were hopelessly unrealistic initially. The other thing is, instead of blaming the govt or the corporations, better put the blame squarely where it belongs: with the people. Corporations can make small, fuel efficient cars, and have done so. Did not GM make the Saturn SL-1, for example, for many years? That got 40 mpg, without so much fanfare. But people think they should be able to buy 3-ton trucks that get 40 mpg, and still burn rubber and make loud V-8 engine sounds. When they cannot, they give up on the mpg much faster than giving up on the 3-ton behemoth with loud V-8 engine.

Bert22306
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CEO
re: I'm tired of mandating technical progress via decrees
Bert22306   8/18/2011 7:54:04 PM
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This is not something that is up for debate, Underboat. When comparing the efficiency of internal combustion cars with electrics, obviously you have to use cost, not mpg. And even though that depends on the price of electricity where you live, compared with the price of gasoline or diesel, the numbers tell it all. In the era of the Internet, there is no excuse for not knowing this. Here is an article among a zillion that explains this stuff, for non-technical readers. http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/aug2009/db20090817_818797.htm I'm absolutely NOT a fan of battery electrics, because I think there are better ways of making uncompromised electric cars, but the numbers are there for anyone to see. Even WITHOUT having realistic prices set for gasoline, electricity still wins out by a decent margin. And yes, other sources of pertroleum exist, but they also cost more and would only make that comparison more skewed.

UnderboatBoy
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re: I'm tired of mandating technical progress via decrees
UnderboatBoy   8/18/2011 6:00:23 PM
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Wrong! The power grid looses even with switched mode conversion. Even commercials by the Power Utilities brag that they have to transport twice as much power to a light bulb than gets used by a light bulb to make it work. That's a 50% loss before reaching a resistive load... and not considering the "in-plant losses" Add the following losses: - power conversion for charger ... - electrochem for battery - reconversion to motor drive and the usual mechanicals and you probably end up with a coal to torque efficiency between 6% and 10%

UnderboatBoy
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re: I'm tired of mandating technical progress via decrees
UnderboatBoy   8/18/2011 5:54:16 PM
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This is the oldest and stupidest corporate boogey-man conspiracy theory about Mo-Town there ever was. IF GM, FORD, CHRYSLER, AMERICAN MOTORS or anyone came up with that incredible 100 MPG engine or carbeurator design, They would build it and sell it because it would cause unquenchable demand for that product...

UnderboatBoy
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re: I'm tired of mandating technical progress via decrees
UnderboatBoy   8/18/2011 5:50:35 PM
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Ah! .. at last we have the ad hominem liberal attack against the “dumba$$ tea party consumer” and the inference that tea-partiers are the citizen knuckle-draggers of society and “have no say”. Yes government does have a purpose and the main purpose of the one extablished is to get OUT of the WAY of the individual before anything else.

UnderboatBoy
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Rookie
re: I'm tired of mandating technical progress via decrees
UnderboatBoy   8/18/2011 5:36:26 PM
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Convice ME that the government can make the "Right Choice" for me other than forcing me to make the "right choice" by choosing either new laws, rules and regulations or Jail time. What in your mind makes the Gov'mt the arbitor of the right social cost? Left leaning polliticians? The social 'cost' of loosing liberty to the fiat of (usually unelected and uncontrolled) government bureaus is the worst social cost of all.

UnderboatBoy
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Rookie
re: I'm tired of mandating technical progress via decrees
UnderboatBoy   8/18/2011 5:30:07 PM
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I'm from Mo-Town. My daddy worked for GM desigining cars, one of my uncles was in the upper eschelon of Chrysler motors during the 70s and I worked in a couple of market segments as an electronics power engineer myself. I can tell you if the 100mPG car or the 50mPG truck were buildable and IF PEOPLE WOULD BUY IT, the Big Three would offer it to you. There is no cabal with the Oil companies. There is no reason to hold back.

brian_g
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Rookie
re: I'm tired of mandating technical progress via decrees
brian_g   8/18/2011 4:05:36 PM
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Could you kindly point me to the part of the constitution that created or gave the gov't the authority for NASA?

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