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Asian-Americans dominating tech?

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DAH2136
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DAH2136   12/21/2012 3:59:50 PM
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Ever read the Bell Curve?

danny1024
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danny1024   12/21/2012 6:59:30 PM
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Yep. My other degree is in Cognitive Science with an emphasis on the neural correlates of general human intelligence. Northeast Asians (Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese) tend to have disproportionately strong visual-spatial and symbolic reasoning at the expense of verbal and conceptual reasoning. Consequently, you would expect Northeast Asians to be over represented in engineering and other technical fields that emphasize visual-spatial and symbolic reasoning. However, the disparity in visual-spatial & symbolic reasoning between Northeast Asians and Northwest Europeans (from whom the majority of white Americans are descended)is too small to explain the workforce demographics at play in Silicon Valley. Rather, I suspect the *over over* representation of Asians in Silicon Valley is due to proximity to Asia, the collectivist nature of most Asian cultures and the fact that Asians are viewed (rightly or wrongly) as cheaper employees. It's this latter point that probably, mostly explains their representation in a very high cost state like California.

Wnderer
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Wnderer   12/21/2012 4:37:41 PM
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My question is what percentage of white engineers are immigrants and what percentage is native born. Then break that down by age.

SylvieBarak
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SylvieBarak   12/21/2012 6:34:27 PM
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The report certainly raises more questions than it answers...

Thomas
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Thomas "Rick" Tewell   12/21/2012 10:59:21 PM
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'Tech companies, Lewis said, "do not want to employ Americans. They import labor from overseas, pushing for H-1B visas. Check the job boards. They basically say, 'H-1B Visa. Americans need not apply.' For years, women, blacks and Latinos have been kept out of the tech job market. Now white men are being forced to train their replacements.' WOW!!! That is a VERY provocative statement and is balanced by very little in the piece. I would say that the SJMN put together a piece that really has a lot of elements of racism in it... :(

danny1024
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danny1024   12/21/2012 6:44:58 PM
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In Silicon Valley or in the US in general? I went to an engineering school in the Midwest (late 90's) and then an engineering grad school on the east coast (2007 - 2012). Most of the white engineers were native born US citizens. Some were first generation Americans (mostly the descendants of Russian Jews who were allowed to leave the USSR a la Sergey Brin). It bears repeating that California is *very* unrepresentative of the US as a whole particularly in workforce demography. The remainder were Eastern/Central European who came over for late high school, undergrad or grad school. This second group impressed me the most in terms of technical talent especially with respect to other non-native engineers.

danny1024
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danny1024   12/21/2012 4:44:48 PM
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Strangely, California's budget deficit has increased in direct proportion to the increase in Asian-American tech workers in Silicon Valley. Surely a coincidence.

WKetel
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WKetel   12/21/2012 9:59:32 PM
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Danny is certainly correct. MOST of us don't live in the bay area, and a large proportion of us don't live in California. And California is most certainly not representative of anyplace else in the whole world. Possibly they have been out in the sun a bit too long.

truekop
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truekop   12/21/2012 5:10:31 PM
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@danny1024 I suppose but for the Asian American community paying all the taxes the CA budget deficit would have increased even further...that may be another point to think about...

danny1024
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danny1024   12/21/2012 6:33:18 PM
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My insinuation is that the first thing nearly every Asian engineer does when he /she gets settled in the Valley is to import his/her aged parents and extended family most of whom end up suckling on California's generous (by US standards) welfare state. Even with the engineer earning good to great money and paying California income tax it is not enough to offset the burdens imposed by the rest of his/her clan.

nosubject
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nosubject   12/21/2012 8:34:33 PM
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To test this out, CA in fact can balance the budget and cut the welfare. This will lead to a win-win situation. The budget will be balanced, and the AsianAmerican will still stay in STEM because I think the root-cause is the culture.

sival
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sival   12/21/2012 8:52:24 PM
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Danny, you should really consider a career change, from engineering to politician. You certainly have the quility, Crooked and Incompetent. California state government & local government collected record amount of tax. The government employee salary & benefit is more than doubled the past decade. In San Jose, city employee cost alone is more than 80% of the city budget. Asian made up 10% of california pupolation. They also have the highest household income, which uaually translates into more tax dollars. BTW, in the current immigration system, it's nearly impossible to bring the extended family here. How could they suck up the welfare of CA? It's really your second cousin or third niece, those who worked at all level of government, sucked CA dry.

Thomas
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Thomas "Rick" Tewell   12/21/2012 9:53:05 PM
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ummm...excuse me? Are you bating folks here or do you really believe what you type? Are you further insinuating (assuming your assertion is valid) that this is somehow BAD behavior? A lot of people in our great country could take a lesson from our Asian friends and show a LOT more respect for our elders then we do. I think this is noble behavior. How is partaking of a rightful benefit in any way wrong? If there is some societal motion that says this is "bad" behavior then change the laws but until then... The USA is STILL a land of unbridled opportunity...it is a shame more of us who are born here don't reach out and take advantage of that. In many ways those who come here from Asia to find opportunity and benefit are quite courageous. We should be thankful that many of these engineers are willing to come to the USA and share their greatest assets of time, energy and brain power. I certainly hope that you realize the wonderful asset that they truly are to the engineering companies they work for.

liverdonor
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liverdonor   12/21/2012 10:09:16 PM
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Amazing. This conversation is going down a very racist/generalist path. The State of California spends much more on illegal immigrants than legal ones - something like 1.25 times as much. The top of every list in that category are people from Mexico, Central and South America. I've spent most of my life traveling all over the world (mostly for work), and have spent nearly an equal amount of time studying human physical anthropology. Not only have I seen and read plenty of evidence that the small variance in genetic-driven tendencies (when those tendencies even express as behavior, which is very rare) between folks from different regions is vanishingly unimportant, statistically; I've also noted that in almost every culture that migrates, the parents of the culture go out of their way to provide for the children - not the other way round. This is certainly true of East Asian cultures. The absolute last thing anyone from China, Japan or Korea wants to do upon arrival in the US is to go on welfare. The numbers support this behavior. So your comments are not only racist but mathematically challenged.

Bert22306
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Bert22306   12/21/2012 10:53:06 PM
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I think the missing bit of information here is that the population of whites in California is shrinking, in absolute numbers. The population of Hispanics, and less so Asians, is instead increasing. The Hispanic increase tends to be poor, however. So it's not surprising that the STEM jobs left by whites are disproportionately going to Asians. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Whites-in-state-below-the-replacement-level-3186119.php And there's more, though. If you do a search on the Freshman class demographic breakdown in top universities of the US, say the Ivy League colleges, you'll also see that whites are often less than 50 percent of the entering class. Part of that trend is for "bragging rights," of course, but part is also the global competition for admittance. Take a look at MIT's Freshmen in 2011, for instance: http://tech.mit.edu/V127/N31/admissions.html "African Americans make up 9 percent of the class, comparable to the Class of 2010’s 8 percent but an increase from the 6 percent of the previous three classes. (See the tables on page 10 for additional statistics.) "The remaining Class of 2011 is 38 percent Caucasian, 26 percent Asian American, 7 percent Mexican American, 1 percent Native American, 2 percent Puerto Rican, and 3 percent other Hispanic. One percent is of other ethnic descent, 8 percent are international students whose ethnicity was not polled, and 5 percent did not respond." So there you have it. The demographics are changing, more Hispanics, somewhat more Asians, and fewer whites, in the US in general, and in California in particular. Can't help but create chnges in the workplace, eh?

bogdanbmcc
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bogdanbmcc   12/22/2012 12:12:00 AM
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The racial/cultural classification as practiced in USA does not further much of understanding of the issues. The examples are too many, so lets take on "White": In the context of this thread I would like to know: how many are native born, 1st or 2nd generation breakdown and the very important country of origin (or ancestry). I myself do not feel much White first or second or third although I am white. The country of origin comes first, class, education, upbringing etc... Given large portion of immigrants of any color these should be factors of any comparative study. Do we consider a former Spanish citizen a Latino? Do we classify him as White? And his primary language may be not Spanish .. how about Catalan?

Bert22306
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Bert22306   12/22/2012 1:04:00 AM
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"Do we consider a former Spanish citizen a Latino?" No, of course not. This type of conversation, in the US and increasingly in Europe now, but not much yet in other cultures, becomes a magnet for politically correct obfuscation. Other cultures seem to be a lot more straighforward about these things. When people say "white," I think they really mean "of European extraction." When people say "Latino," what they really mean is "of Latin Americal extraction," but possibly excepting Argentina and Chile. Because pretty clearly, Argentines and Chileans are largely "of European extraction" too. When people say "Hispanic," seems to me they are really referring to a native-American and Spanish mix, as you see more of in Mexico, Central America, Bolivia, Peru.

sprite0022
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sprite0022   12/25/2012 3:22:28 AM
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anyone has a statistic of wheather white still dominating bars in college / bay area? I think this explains all. I once was at berkeley's library after dawn and see dominating asians. where white's heart at, where they will end up with.

Bert22306
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Bert22306   12/25/2012 8:49:53 AM
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Perhaps, but before you go too far with your line of thinking, you might also want to read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/education/international-students-pay-top-dollar-at-us-colleges.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 This is a racket too, don't be fooled. Universities make more money from foreign students whose governments pay full tuition, than from Americans who count on scholarships. So between that and so-called "bragging rights," white American males are getting the short end of the stick. As the admittance stats show. Especially true at the most prestigious universities, such as Ivy League. Look it up.

aviat72
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aviat72   12/27/2012 8:19:00 PM
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Bert: Perhaps it would help if you became more sensitive to the discrimination faced by Asian Americans in college admissions and the workforce. To start with read this detailed article from the American Conservative about the admission bias against Asian Americans in America's top schools: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/ In the top private schools of the US, Asian American enrollment has been capped at 15% over the last decade. The average SAT scores of Asian Americans are significantly higher (140 points on a scale of 1600) than White Americans admitted to the Ivys. I know of many well rounded Asian American students with 4.0+ averages from the most competitive schools, excellent leadership records, and strong community involvement who do not get in to private schools, while their non-Asian class mates who they outdistance on all metrics, get in. Beyond a certain level, it is who you know which matters, and Asians get the short end of the stick. Effectively, Asians are being shut out of the truly lucrative professions in America, especially those which lead to political and economic power. As a result they tend to go towards careers where what you know matters more than who you know. And the tech industry is one refuge, along with medicine. But even in the Tech industry they hit the the glass ceiling. Can you count the number of Asian Americans in this meeting of Silicon Valley execs with Obama? http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/president-obama-meets-with Any thoughts?

Rchandta1
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Rchandta1   12/28/2012 3:45:41 AM
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I read bias against Asians in elite university admission before. These universities cap asians students admission in accordance with their policy, which nothing but racial bias. Now if the silicon valley companies value meritocracy then high proportion of Asians in high skill jobs is not surprising.

sprite0022
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sprite0022   12/26/2012 1:00:48 AM
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@Bert, I knows this too well. american males are not getting the short end of stick, never. they are more willing to get into pre-med or law school, that's the place you ll find a few hard studying white males. engineering/science just sucks, by any measure. only some desperate asians are interested in it.

Bert22306
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Bert22306   12/27/2012 12:04:31 AM
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Sorry, I don't know what you think you know, but the article I pointed out tells the story. Universities are actively recruiting foreign students who pay full freight, as well as actively recruiting any number of other demographic groups who have historically been under-represented (women and minorities). The result of which is that what was once over-represented, white American males, are now under-represented, especially in the universtities that are most aggressively targeting the different demographic groups. That's what "bragging rights" means. Again, if you look this stuff up, you'll see for instance that women are now over-represented in medicine and law, and even in universities overall, but not in STEM. Asian males are going to those STEM courses. So in part that explains why Asians are talking the tech jobs. It's because they are actively being recruited, they are interested in and succeed academically in STEM programs, and especially in California, the absolute number of whites is declining. Need anything more to explain the shift? Kids who really want to take STEM courses in college are not likely to choose law or medicine instead. I think it's time to rethink the politically correct "bragging rights" orthodoxy. Things change.

xding
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xding   12/26/2012 6:16:25 AM
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In this discussion, we see so many different issues are being touched upon. 1) Immigration, legal and illegal; 2) Income Tax and welfare; 3) Recrimination of race and sex and Age; To me, it comes down to one thing: profit. Individual need profit, family need profit, company need profit, that drive each group doing something best to their interest. We should take a view on this important issue from interest of USA as a whole: 1)Do we need more STEM immigrants to stay competitive? Competing against China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India? 2)Shall we recruit people based on racial percentage or their capability? For the first question, many of you will agree, we need more highly technical skillful engineer and scientist to enter USA, right now EU, Canada, Japan, Australia all allocate high percentage of immigration quota to technical immigrant. USA better continue to attract the world best engineer and scientist to stay competitive as a nation. Apple already lost its crown to Samsung on smart phone, which is highest growing sector in high tech industry. Although Google and ARM replace Intel and Microsoft in mobile industry, but they employment can not replace Intel and Microsoft. Job market in high tech industry looks pretty bleaching long term, that's why a lot of white male do not want to enter this industry.Just like Google layoff massive people from Motorola. USA is losing its technical dominance right now, China and Korea, and Japan are growing much faster than USA now. For second question, it is very simple, we interview and hire people based on their capability and contribution to the company, not anything else. It is very hard to find qualified white and black male in today's market, especially entry level engineer, or entry level marketing engineer, there is just no resume. From that standpoint, white and black make chose to leave this industry, because it need hard work, overtime all the time, not because they are discriminated against.

dthayden
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dthayden   12/26/2012 7:58:02 PM
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As someone who would not consider living in the Bay area for any amount of compensation, I think part of it comes down to tolerance for big city life, and putting money as a priority over quality of life. If you come from expensive, huge, congested cities, you are more likely to enjoy or at least be tolerant of living in such conditions. I would guess most Asian immigrants come from big cities. Being in Idaho, we get many immigrants fleeing California. Lot's of whites, not many Asians. The folks immigrating here are willing to trade quality of life over maximizing compensation.

Mxv
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Mxv   12/27/2012 1:07:44 AM
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Nothing like race battles to egg on the readers... Anyway, as @dthayden alluded to, to get a better picture of the statistics we have to examine the number of whites that have fled to other states. If they're leaving en mass then of-course some other group has to replace them. I'm sure the native Americans can attest to this. Another factor is age. Are the whites retiring? or more likely being age discriminated out of engineering? What are the age demographics for Whites vs. Asians? Willing to bet the whites are older.

JeffL_2
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JeffL_2   12/27/2012 1:49:56 PM
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I can recall even more than forty years ago (in an Ivy League school that will remain unidentified) Asian professors with tenure protection blatantly steering their attention to the careful education of other Asians (even to the extent of occasionally "lapsing" parts of the lecture into Mandarin or other tongues) and the few of us "round eyes" actually qualified to attend these classes got rewarded for our diligence with dirty, heavy foam chalk erasers thrown at our heads with great force DURING the lecture! These profs would get a pass by the administration because we'd get told things like "Asians aren't racists, they're just culturally collectivist" whatever the hell THAT means. Then add in that employers really like the premise that their recruiting departments can "tap into" whole overseas villages and extended families of well-trained Asians who know each other and are willing to work for low wages and poor benefits and you'd have to question the sanity of any employer who WOULDN'T hire "Asian first", it just leaves a bad taste in the mouths of those of us still hanging around waiting for our own "pot of gold". I'm sure there's also SOMEONE who wants to declare that I'M a racist just for finally telling the simple truth, there never really was a "safe" circumstance to bring all this up, especially in academia (although I didn't go that way myself) where just acknowledging that this behavior is rampant is more than enough to permanently "nuke" one's career, and this particular form of "political correctness" is an essential form of self-preservation.

sprite0022
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sprite0022   12/28/2012 12:38:17 AM
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@ Bert, ya ya, forget about your article, let me tell you a story. one of US top10 EE dept admitted a group of underqualified white males (and they are still doing it.) In the end a piece of diploma from a top 10 or MIT whatever means nothing to them, they just can't find a job and wandering around. That 's why engineering sucks, cause nothing (maybe except real talent) will save you. American whites better use their racial advantage to get into a law major or sth where diploma matters more.

sprite0022
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sprite0022   12/28/2012 6:08:17 AM
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@ Rchandta1, Hell no, US tech firm (almost) don't care about your academic backgrounds. like micron which 's favorite college is ... Boise State , o man, where it's former CEO and group of top excutives from. TI 's CEO is also from a 100+ ranked college. In a tech company connection, chemistry with your boss rules.

chanj0
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chanj0   1/3/2013 7:23:09 PM
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One of the key statistics is the Asian population growth in Bay Area. It will tell us whether the tech domination is due to population growth or solely because more Asian Americans prefer tech job over the others. I've been in the Bay Area for more than 10 years. To my observation, there are actually more Asian Americans living in the Bay Area over the pass 10 years. There isn't much doubt Asian population has grown significantly. I keen to believe there is growth of Asian American in the other professions as well. Let's check the fact. :D

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