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Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts

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Chipguy1
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
Chipguy1   6/6/2013 1:42:18 PM
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Rick, The schocking data is the load power (when CPU is running) is higher for Haswell than ivy bridge or sandy bridge. 11.8% increase over ivy bridge (113W versus 101W). I take this as Intels finfet just like the foundry has high gate Capactitance (back to levels not seen since 130 or 90 nodes) and is causing the high power. Until intel gets the high gate capacitance fixed, my guess it will not be a meaningful player in smartphone market http://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested/2

rick merritt
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
rick merritt   6/6/2013 9:13:42 PM
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I don't expect any Core family chip to play in smartphones. That's Atom territory. However these Haswell chips will play in some midrange and higher tablets, or 2-in-1s as Intel calls them.

eewiz
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
eewiz   6/6/2013 1:45:19 PM
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“I believe that the closer the PC platform gets to the tablet’s convenience and battery life, more people will choose a new PC over a new 10-inch tablet,” This is so true..I would have chosen a surface pro over ipad, if only the price was similar to that of an iPad. You can't package a full pc in tablet formfactor, and price it 999 and compete with 499 ipad. There should be a price parity. Unfortunately that will mean... lower margins for Intel

alche
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
alche   6/6/2013 2:23:11 PM
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squeezed between smart phones and laptops, tablets appear the most threatened. None appear to be making money except iPads, and even the latter has fallen victim to the Mini. Between my iPhone5, iPad3 and quad core i7-3x Dell Latitude with SSD, my iPad3 is the one gathering dust. Too big compared to smart phone (and no cellular unless pay extra), too slow/limited compared to a good laptop.

chipmonk0
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
chipmonk0   6/6/2013 4:51:43 PM
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Intel seems to be taking a shot-gun approach to chip design and missing the sweet spots in the performance / power-consumption spectrum. After getting hammered for the last 5 years with iPhone, iPad and ARM are they now perhaps punch - drunk ?

rick merritt
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
rick merritt   6/6/2013 9:15:42 PM
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Intel architects claim the tablet/notebook and server markets have similar max perf per joule requirements so the core design is substantially the same. What's really different is, they say, the "uncore" block that has different versions for I/O and memory for servers and clients.

Chipguy1
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
Chipguy1   6/6/2013 5:34:13 PM
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Only intel could also market 2 chips as a "New! 1 chip BGA solution". When in fact 2 chips are needed. Even the PCH chip is on an advanced node 32nm. In total intel is using more than 200mm^2 of advanced silicon area for Haswell. My system contact says pricing for the ULV parts is absurd at ($300-400) due to very few parts bin to the less than 15W spec.

help.fulguy
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
help.fulguy   6/6/2013 11:16:59 PM
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From an ARM-paid reporter such as Rick, We really cant expect more than this. Rick, how much did ARM pay you to write this trashy of an article. Nothing is good at Intel and everything is great at ARM. Right?

sranje
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
sranje   6/7/2013 1:52:06 AM
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Are we talking about Merrifield Atom in the new Haswell architecture in 22nm (Silvermont - 2014) and 14nm (2015) Silvermont will appear in several flavours. -- Merrifield will target SPs (Mot/Google, Lenovo, Nokia, Samsung, etc. -- Bay Trail is targeted at Ts while Avoton will focus on microsevers Rick, about which Atom processor are you and analysts commenting about? -- In 2014 with 14nm Atom, with fully integrated Wi-Fi in digital domain (fully scalable) Intel might conduct a scorched earth market penetration -- with many OEMs using it, including Samsung, Google/Motorola, Lenovo, Nokia, etc., etc.

rick merritt
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
rick merritt   6/8/2013 2:18:04 AM
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Haswell is part of the Core x86 architecture the follow on to Ivy Bridge. Atom is a separate x86 lineage aimed at lower power and performance targets with its own road map targeted at mobile and microservers as you note.

the_floating_ gate
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
the_floating_ gate   6/7/2013 3:38:05 AM
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Haswell, won’t revive a sagging PC market or give Intel a huge leg up in tablets from what I hear. I hear oral sex can give you throat cancer - that's what I hear...

joepaiii
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
joepaiii   6/7/2013 3:17:16 PM
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I wish there was a like button!

joepaiii
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
joepaiii   6/7/2013 3:18:09 PM
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Wait... that sounds a little off given the context but I did think it was a funny post!

resistion
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
resistion   6/7/2013 7:51:48 AM
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How does Haswell compare against the Ivy Bridge or Sandy Bridge in notebooks/ultrabooks?

rick merritt
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
rick merritt   6/8/2013 2:19:04 AM
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Haswell has significantly less power consumption for roughly similar performance as Ivy Bridge.

BILL.NUMANN
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
BILL.NUMANN   6/7/2013 4:38:01 PM
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The additional average system power consumption is due to the FIVR which is a tradeoff due to the low efficiency of the integrated regulator.

shikantaza
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
shikantaza   6/7/2013 6:45:49 PM
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I saw a presentation at USC by the guys from Indiana(?) who did the on-chip regulator research. It's gall-danged efficient - well over 90% - and switches between capacitive and inductive energy storage to maintain peak efficiency across multiple load ranges. There are apparently multiple regulators on chip, so if you idle a processor, you can turn it's power supply off as well. Hard to do that size-efficiently off-chip.

shikantaza
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
shikantaza   6/7/2013 6:54:11 PM
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I have confidence Intel will continue to do well, and surmount the religious biases that tempt people to use ARM. Both have their places, and Intel is well-motivated to add features for fine-grain power control while supporting that ol' installed software base. I'm troubled by predictions of gloom and doom based on tablets taking over the world. Not any time soon for serious users - until there is a substitute for a keyboard and high-resolution mouse, desktops and laptops will remain important after the tablet blip subsides. Remember how small cell phones were for a while? A useful computer can only be made so small before it becomes an impediment. I have a tablet; it's great for games and email. It's close to useless for anything else, no matter what Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, or Samsung say.

Simon7382
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
Simon7382   6/7/2013 9:08:14 PM
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I could not agree more. Tablets are for vacation to stay connected and read e-books. Laptops are for work.

MClayton0
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
MClayton0   6/7/2013 8:40:05 PM
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Agree with shikantaza. However, sales are sales, and most people use computers for ENTERTAINMENT or INFORMATION not for creating content, which PC's do every well. So tablets will win in volume...as most people have waited for years to get computer technology that only communicates, does not really "compute" and up until recently, their PHONES were not web communication tools. The three C's of Communications, Control, and Computing are costly for systems that have to be optimized for all three C's. Focus on one C and its cheaper.

Bert22306
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
Bert22306   6/7/2013 8:44:33 PM
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I too wonder about the doom and gloom we keep hearing. If tablets will go anywhere beyond their current "toy" status it will only be because they can do enough of the PC tasks o take over those roles. I mean, beyond just reading the paper or watching YouTube videos. The Haswell development seems to be right on target, as far as I can tell.

arno_x
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
arno_x   6/7/2013 9:09:26 PM
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Surface Pro running on Haswell is a 4 hours device. At 999 euros , itvs far too low. 14 nm won t bring much in term of power saving. Intel is ok on high perf devices...arm better on low power. AMD is the ultimate loser

jaybus0
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
jaybus0   6/10/2013 1:02:39 PM
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AMD is not going anywhere just yet. Xbox sales alone will make their APU effort profitable. Their APUs are a nice fit for Xbox-type devices. They don't have Haswell's performance, but are cheaper and use less power. They aren't as low power as ARM, but have far better performance. AMD is wisely trying to fit into the gap between ARM and Intel's offerings.

wsw1982
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
wsw1982   6/12/2013 10:08:20 AM
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You bought the wrong tablet. You should buy the MICROSOFT surface pro...

the_floating_ gate
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
the_floating_ gate   6/8/2013 7:14:02 AM
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“Haswell is only marginally better than [the existing] Ivy Bridge [CPUs] for most compute tasks,” Brookwood said. I think that was widely expected...Haswell is focusing on "battery life". The net result is “there’s still a big gap between the performance of the fastest Intel Atoms and the slowest Haswells,” said Brookwood. “Likewise, battery life is way better with Atom than with the best Haswell,” he said. Thus “there’s nothing in the ARM camp that can compete with Haswell on performance, and there’s nothing in the Haswell camp that can compete with ARM for battery life,” he added. Maybe Atom that can beat ARM with respect to performance and battery life??!! - Haswell addresses a completely different market compared to Atom. just like BMW has a 3 series and 7 series -

JeffL_2
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
JeffL_2   6/8/2013 3:46:06 PM
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No, Intel wasn't even original in THAT respect...where do you think i3, i5, i7 came from in the first place??

Chipguy1
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
Chipguy1   6/9/2013 10:06:00 PM
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From supply chain. Surface 2 will be announced in June and ship 2H. MS projects highest volumn Sufrace will be the one with snapdragon 800. Describe as good enough computing for the masses at a very agressive price.

DMcCunney
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re: Intel's Haswell gets mixed reviews from analysts
DMcCunney   6/10/2013 7:03:09 PM
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Analysts seem to be looking at Intel's offerings as something that might save the PC market. I think this is misplaced. PCs (including ultrabooks) and tablets have different use cases, and are not all that interchangeable. A friend got an iPad, and described it as a "media consumption device." I think he was spot on. The tablet is a largely half duplex device. The assumption is that you will use it to consume media, and the interface is optimized for choosing the media you wish to consume. You don't need a keyboard or a mouse, because you aren't generally *creating* content. You're just tapping the screen to pick what you want to read/view/watch/hear next. If a tablet fits your use cases and meets your needs, you won't buy an ultrabook, even if it is the same price, because you don't need to do the other things an ultrabook does. (And while you *can* use an ultrabook for the same purposes as a tablet, it will be far less convenient.) Intel accepting lower margins to allow ultrabooks to be cheaper won't magically make them sell better. The question isn't what an ultrabook costs, it's how many people need what an ultrabook does. The likely answer is "Not enough to provide the sales ultrabook vendors might like." We may well be in the position where everybody who *can* use a PC (in whatever form factor) largely *has* one, and the market is replacements and upgrades, not new sales. That's still a vary large market, but is doesn't provide the growth the analysts look for. The tablet market is not yet saturated, and does.

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