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Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?

Is IBM handing over technology to China?
10/19/2009 03:00 PM EDT
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Semiconductor Design Engineer
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
Semiconductor Design Engineer   10/19/2009 6:55:10 PM
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Think through the consequences? What do they care, their a big multinational company, if it makes money for them, I'm sure that's all the justification they need.

ryankenny
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ryankenny   10/19/2009 7:10:46 PM
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The one reason this should probably be encouraged is that it offers China the opportunity to transfer technology the 'right' way, rather than the 'wrong' way. The more long-term technology transfer contracts we have in place with China, the more leverage we have over them to terminate all transfers unless they play fair on cloning, counterfeiting, brand dilution, etc.

mark.lapedus
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mark.lapedus   10/19/2009 7:55:25 PM
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IBM has struck its second major chip deal in China, leaving some to wonder if Big Blue is handing over technology to that nation without thinking about the possible consequences. Do you agree or disagree? Are we handing over our future to China?

WaveMan0
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
WaveMan0   10/20/2009 1:54:27 AM
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ryankenny: "The one reason this should probably be encouraged..." Dream on! Right way, or wrong way, China will do what ever it takes to "acquire" technical know how, being it semiconductor, automotive, software, etc. How does this give us leverage over China? In time they will take IBM's licensed foundry processes as a knowledge base, throw resources/$$$ at it, and jettison IBM. If the Chinese don't play fair in a few years, see ya IBM! Just look at China's insatiable appetite for natural resources like oil. They will make deals with evil regimes like Sudan and Iran to please themselves. No regard for what these regimnes do to their own citizens. Wake up America!

jer9ball
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jer9ball   10/20/2009 6:05:49 AM
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Based on their track record, I think IBM has a good idea when to license/sell/divest various technologies and products. I'm sure the decision will work out well for IBM, and that's all they need to consider. Considering that the readership of EETimes is global in nature, I'm not sure how to answer "are WE handing over our future to China?".

jackOfManyTrades
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
jackOfManyTrades   10/20/2009 8:31:21 AM
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jer9ball makes a good point. I'm not in America, but read EETimes, too. I've made a similar point to this before and no doubt, I'll make it again: we Europeans are charactured by Americans for being a bit left wing, yet time and time again I read articles in like this in EETimes, which show that you American's really don't get capitalism and free trade at all. I wonder where your characture of a right wing, freedom-loving nation come from? It certainly isn't presented in the pages of EETimes.

JamieYang
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
JamieYang   10/20/2009 10:41:24 AM
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The case is just a fair commercial deal. There is no pie in the sky. If we all keep technology secret,no communicate, how can we move forward? If American wonder future,you should move forward/make better&stronger. This is a correct/active attitude.

Bryan 93 ?
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Bryan 93 ?   10/20/2009 12:48:43 PM
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jackOfManyTrades, "which show that you American's really don't get capitalism and free trade at all". Nothing like generalizing the knowledge of a population of 300 million from a few articles in a generally liberal magazine. Most all of us "get it', but many don't agree with it.

jackOfManyTrades
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
jackOfManyTrades   10/21/2009 7:13:39 AM
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Bryan 93 ? - "Nothing like generalizing the knowledge of a population of 300 million from a few articles in a generally liberal magazine". A fair point. I guess I am generalising from many articles in this magazine and the vast majority of comments posted underneath them.

microe
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
microe   10/21/2009 5:25:13 PM
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I have seen editors of EEtimes used this dark, negative-colored picture often when they reported stories about China. I wonder what they are trying to indicate by using such a negative picture.

Semiconductor Design Engineer
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
Semiconductor Design Engineer   10/22/2009 12:08:47 AM
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Hummm, I wonder too, perhaps it because of things like Tiananmen Square massacre, protests by ethnic Uygurs, Tibetan sovereignty, Communist government, ...? Naaa, must be something else (perhaps bad Chinese take out food experience?)

Semiconductor Design Engineer
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Semiconductor Design Engineer   10/22/2009 12:13:06 AM
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Yea, I know, we have problems here too, corrupt or inept financial institutions (i.e., Wall Street), war in Iraq, etc.

mark.lapedus
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
mark.lapedus   10/22/2009 3:29:02 AM
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In my opinion, here's why this article--and debate--is important: China has shown little or no respect for IP. Want some evidence? There is a pattern here. Here's a tip of the iceberg: 1. Trial to begin in economic espionage case involving China That story can be read here. 2. Beijing Auto says watching ex-Ford engineer theft case That story can be read here. 3.TSMC vs. SMIC Trade Secrets Trial Heats Up That story can be read here. 4. The U.S. Department of Justice announced the arrests of four individuals on Monday and accused them of stealing military and aerospace secrets and sending them to China. That story can be read here. 5. IC-equipment and materials suppliers face mounting challenges in intellectual property (IP) protection, warned a new study published by SEMI. That story can be read here. 6. In its 2007 Report to Congress, the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission (USCC) calls Chinese espionage the top threat to U.S. technology. That story can be read here. 7. Two men were indicted on charges of conspiracy to commit economic espionage and to steal trade secrets at NetLogic Microsystems Inc. and Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. Ltd., according to officials. That story can be read here. 8. In a suit filed with the California Superior Court in Alameda County, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. is again going after Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp., alleging that the Chinese foundry is still using stolen trade secrets as the key ingredient in its process recipes. That story can be read here. 9. Intellectual-property theft in China isn't going away anytime soon. That story can be read here.

aquitaine
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
aquitaine   10/22/2009 9:33:42 AM
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@Mark: Your evidence is based on articles, most of which seem to be 2+ years old. It is true that piracy is a problem in China, but it is one on the way out and quite frankly is way overstated. As China's consumers get richer, they buy real stuff. http://www.chinalawblog.com/2009/10/piracy_in_china_taint_no_big_t.html As long as you can clearly document that the technology is yours, you can successfully go to court in China. As per the following: http://www.chinalawblog.com/2009/09/protecting_your_ip_in_china_th.html Enough with the China bashing. Believe it or not, when the US was developing it was a major IP violator, so was Japan in the 50's and 60's, and until relatively recently so was South Korea. Eventually it will go away, but it takes time and economic development.

JamieYang
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
JamieYang   10/22/2009 9:38:36 AM
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1. TSMC & SMIC are all chinese FAB. There are many lawsuit case between American company.Must more than 9 case each year. How do you explain? 2. CSMC pay money to IBM to get the 018RF technology, not free. 3. Sometimes,lawsuit is just a bussiness method.Such as the case between Sigmatel VS. ACTS(Actions semiconductor,a chinese fabless design house) There maybe have some infringement case, but it's not all for China. We should be case by case.

Semiconductor Design Engineer
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Semiconductor Design Engineer   10/22/2009 4:38:35 PM
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Bashing? Well, I just did a google search limiting results to those of only published works this year, and it seems to still paint a fairly damning picture if IP theft in China when I look at unique occurrences of reports from respected sources. Certainly more negative then positive (you refer too two recent items). While as you show things are improving it looks like there's still a ways to go.

mark.lapedus
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
mark.lapedus   10/22/2009 5:01:08 PM
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Hi out there! Thanks for the feedback. To set the record straight, I am NOT a China basher. There's plenty of those in Washington. I'm just merely stating the facts. Some of the articles I presented are old. Some are recent. I could come up with more--if you wish. FYI. I'm glad CSMC and SMIC followed the rule of law in China. Just wondering if the U.S. is giving away the jewels?

microe
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
microe   10/22/2009 6:19:16 PM
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Wall Street has so many greedy bankers does not justify that a negative picture should be used whenever reporting US economy. For the same reason, some IP violation cases does not justify that a negative picture should be used whenever reporting China, especially considering the tremendous efforts China has been making on IP protection. (An interesting comparison will be to see if Wall Street will take any lesson from the crisis they created) Hope we will not see this biased picture again. EEtimes is an excellent technical newspaper. Bias should not have any place here. P.S. There are plenty of China bashers in Washington does not mean bashing China is the right thing. Very likely the same politicians approved the Iraqi war. Cold war is history. We need cooperation not confrontation.

aquitaine
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
aquitaine   10/23/2009 2:29:44 AM
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"I'm just merely stating the facts." Facts that have been spun around. The way the facts were presented made it seem like a.) IP piracy only happens in China and b.) it isn't getting any better. "Just wondering if the U.S. is giving away the jewels?" We arn't giving anything away. If we aren't willing to liscence what we develop then what is the point to doing R&D? Part of the problem with IP in China is that foreign companies frequently don't bother to follow proper legal procedures for registering their IP in China (they also frequently don't bother following procedures for things like contracts, as well as many other things). That blog that I linked is written by a lawyer working in a foreign law firm that set up a branch office in china, and it serves chinese as well as foreign firms operating in China. I trust his word.

aquitaine
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
aquitaine   10/23/2009 2:35:06 AM
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I wish the comments section had an edit button, I'd like to submit this as an addundum to my previous post: "While as you show things are improving it looks like there's still a ways to go." Well of course things still have a ways to go. China's GDP per capita is roughly equal to Albania's, even though over all it has the third largest economy. The enitire country has a long way to go in a lot of areas.

mark.lapedus
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
mark.lapedus   10/23/2009 2:40:02 AM
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IP theft is a worldwide issue. Ask the U.S. drug companies about Brazil. A nightmare. I lived in Taiwan many years. IP laws were broken. Hong Kong is bad. So is Korea. Don't get me started about Japan. I'm just saying that China has failed to address its IP issues. That's not China bashing. It's a simple fact.

aquitaine
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
aquitaine   10/23/2009 6:01:00 AM
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"I'm just saying that China has failed to address its IP issues" That makes it sound like either this is a problem that can be solved overnight (which it isn't) but hasn't been or that no effort is being put in solve it (which also isn't true). It's an ongoing effort. In actuality the legal framework didn't actually start to be used until about 3 years ago. In addition to China Law Blog here's an entire blog dedicated just to IP: http://ipdragon.blogspot.com/ "I lived in Taiwan many years. IP laws were broken. Hong Kong is bad. So is Korea. Don't get me started about Japan." And when was the last time any of these countries/terroritories were singled out like this when an American company liscenced tech a taiwanese/hong kongese/korean/japanese company?

TatterSalad
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
TatterSalad   10/24/2009 8:44:10 AM
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Moving Mfg. overseas is the ONLY way to go. To be competitive, and make a profit ALL manufacturing companies of any size must have an off-shore sub-corporation to protect their profits from Uncle. He taxes on PROFITS; the more in your bank at the end of the year, the more you lose. The profits from the off-shore subsideriary are taken OUTSIDE of the U.S.; these finished compenents are purchased such that what little profit made within the states allows a 'break even' tax picture. All large Pharmaceutical and Electronic producers HAVE to play this shell game.

mark.lapedus
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
mark.lapedus   10/27/2009 7:46:39 AM
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Hi Regarding IP, the U.S. is tough on Taiwan's IP practices. The Taiwan media is tough on Taiwan. Ask the former president. (I lived in Taiwan 5 years!) The same goes for Korea and Japan. The local media in those nations try to keep businesses (and IP issues) in line. The media is tough in Korea and Japan. Ask the Samsung Group. (Just got back from Korea). Not sure about elsewhere in Asia.

will99878898
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
will99878898   11/4/2009 7:03:59 AM
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it's sad to see EEtimes hired someone like you. 1. you are treating china as an enemy by such assumptions. 2. which is simple and naive. 3. so many US IC tech are result of hard work of foreign engineers from china etc. 4. business is business, ibm made money through this deal. 5. if you don't have any problem with fab club, or japanese don't have problem with toyota teach US how to make cars, 6. then you should shut up. 7. you can spend more time to study some industry inside stuff. 8. or they should send you to a kindergarden to write some war story for kids.

aquitaine
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aquitaine   11/8/2009 2:00:37 AM
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"Regarding IP, the U.S. is tough on Taiwan's IP practices. The Taiwan media is tough on Taiwan. Ask the former president. (I lived in Taiwan 5 years!) The same goes for Korea and Japan. The local media in those nations try to keep businesses (and IP issues) in line. The media is tough in Korea and Japan. Ask the Samsung Group. (Just got back from Korea). " And until relatively recently all of these countries were notorious IP violators. IP protection comes with economic development as our experience with these nations has indicated.

jerryboone
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jerryboone   11/8/2009 2:11:42 PM
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regards! http://www.optische-schwimmbrillen.de

aquitaine
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re: Is IBM handing over key IC technology to China?
aquitaine   11/9/2009 2:27:24 AM
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"6. then you should shut up." "8. or they should send you to a kindergarden to write some war story for kids." Ok, that's going too far. If he's wrong then present evidence that he is wrong and/or explain your reasoning. There is no need for ad hominems here.

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