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Diesels challenge hybrids for efficiency, low emissions

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Duane Benson
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re: Diesels challenge hybrids for efficiency, low emissions
Duane Benson   9/10/2010 11:43:41 PM
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Nice profile of the potential of diesel. And, fortunately, given that as the author states, his company wins with wide-spread adoption of either diesel or HEV, I'm betting this is more balanced than so much of what we read on the subject these days. I think it is important to have a lot of research going into HEV and pure electrics, and we need early-adopter purchases, but in the near-term, the planet could probably get the best reduction in fuels use and pollutants per buck by looking to solutions like modern diesel and super efficient gas power plants. I wonder how much fuel we could save simply by reducing the horsepower in all vehicles by ten or twenty percent. That's probably the real hold-up. We want power and lots of it. To satisfy that desire, we have big gas engines and hybrids that are more about increasing horsepower than fuel economy.

Code Monkey
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re: Diesels challenge hybrids for efficiency, low emissions
Code Monkey   9/16/2010 3:29:25 PM
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I think HEVs will benefit once solar has dropped in cost to the point that consumers have excess power and need a place to put it. I drive a Jetta TDI myself, powered by B100 biodiesel produced from recycled fryer oil.

Mike99
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re: Diesels challenge hybrids for efficiency, low emissions
Mike99   9/17/2010 4:41:10 PM
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I drive one of the Citroen babies (1.2L turbo-deisel) 5 years ago in Spain for several weeks over 4000Km; less than 4L/100km doing 120Km/hr. Experience: smooth, powerful, miserly like US automakers / customers don't have a clue. We don't get out enough nor realize the joke we are. Thanks for your article and quiet significant observation. ps: did you ever have to change one of those HEV batteries, do you know how often you have to in the car's life & related $, any idea of that environmental overall impact? Time to look at the numbers (all of them including 'electric vehicles'). I also converted/drove a Natural Gas conversion dual fuel minivan; a local after-market update shop on a Pontiac minivan. Technology easily applied ($2500) after mfg. and paid-for using a local sales-tax rebate, that is developed to production levels in Italy (over .5M NG vehicles in use). I can gas-up at home with a compressor appliance outside my garage. Engine life is extended with higher octane rating / cleaner burn. Gasoline is still there with a dash-mounted switch. It's out there, just get to it. Good hunting .. & travelling. Mike

Bob Lacovara
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re: Diesels challenge hybrids for efficiency, low emissions
Bob Lacovara   9/20/2010 7:44:03 PM
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I drove a Citroen 1.2L Diesel in Spain more like 15 years ago. At the time, one of my other cars had a Chevy 350 cu in (that's about 5.7L for you kids). At first, I though I might as well get out and walk. But once I figured out that I couldn't shift it like an American sports car, the Citroen and I came to a pleasant understanding: it was a wonderful, if small, car. Bell hops at the hotels would ask me where I was from, how I liked the car, and usually, what I drove at home in the US. I would tell them that my engine at home was 5 times as large, and some would wonder at my Spanish: once, a fellow said "Chevy?" and I smiled yes... it was fun. I miss that car: it was well built, and I couldn't complain of the fuel economy. I wouldn't buy a hybrid: for one thing, I tend to tow a trailer once in a while, and my tastes run to an FJ Cruiser, but I'd certainly consider a large-enough vehicle with a Diesel powerplant.

Mani.Srinivasan
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re: Diesels challenge hybrids for efficiency, low emissions
Mani.Srinivasan   9/22/2010 6:33:33 AM
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Nice article.. I recently moved from a Gasoline car to a Diesel..and never once regretted. It's pheomenal torque, performance and low emission will put a gasoline to shame. And contrary to popular belief you do get quality fuel in India- and India' commercial tansports run on diesel.. The only reason diesel cars sell less in India than gaoline is due to the premium you pay for Diesel. And given that US does not have such issues, Diesel could make a killing if the mindset could change.

henkmol
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re: Diesels challenge hybrids for efficiency, low emissions
henkmol   9/22/2010 7:17:35 AM
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Hi guys and girls (if any...). The higher carnot efficiency of diesels is obvious. Europe is typical diesel country about 1/3rd of all ordinary cars is a diesel here. Why? because of fuel efficiency. Only the taxation of these diesel cars holds us back otherwise they would be the majority. We drive two VW diesels, a polo 1.8 sdi doing 20 km/l if driven in a sporting manner but well behaved 24 km/l if you hold back on the paddles. Not slow at all. Second is a two-metric-tonne T5 transporter van. Big thing. Drives 13 km on a liter of diesel. Thats a lot of cargo bay + 5 person seats (double cab version) and yet using less than the average SUV. And it does not drive like an old truck, no it is actually like a nice car. Silent, reasonably fast, has airco, cruise control etc. No big deal. This how we keep our holidays affordable... Best regards Henk Mol

roldan
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re: Diesels challenge hybrids for efficiency, low emissions
roldan   9/22/2010 7:42:45 AM
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As a customer, I can understand the comparison between HEV and diesel cars. As an engineer, I don't. Diesel cars are competing with gasoline or fuel cells. They are a way to store energy. HEV are not storing energy, but are providing a way to transform chemical energy into mechanical motion. They are competing with the standard mechanical powertrain. What about an HEV powered by a diesel engine?

markogts
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re: Diesels challenge hybrids for efficiency, low emissions
markogts   9/22/2010 8:41:40 AM
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The article has three major mistakes. First, the advantage of HEV is well beyond the start-stop in urban traffic. I won't go in details, but that sentence is simply misleading. Second, I doubt that the cost of a modern diesel engine is so much lower than a HEV powertrain. When you make comparisons with Europe, please bear in mind a simple fact: Europe lags USA and Japan on emission limits by 10 years. A modern diesel "Euro 4" can be readily sold in Europe (up to this December) but the same car would never pass the EPA rules. Europe has always had a very permissive policy on diesel emissions, that's why these cars are so common here. But when you want to compare apples to apples, then you have to consider the price of SCR and urea injection: the car becomes an expensive chemical laboratory. Three: about the reliability. In the recent 10 years, the biggest part of problems came from the diesel powered cars (please check with ADAC statistics if you don't believe me). It is true that basically the diesel engine should be more sturdy and massive, but the "add-ons" have proven very unreliable: turbine stators stuck, particulate filters clog (especially on short travels), debimeters get dirty, electronics goes crazy (I think the Ford Focus 1.8 tdci was maybe the first case of problem solved only by a firmware update). I don't want to bash the diesel, it DOES have some advantages, especially for the typical American way of driving, just bear in mind these issues when comparing solutions. PS for a pure serial hybrid, a diesel, constant RPM, downsized engine would be the best solution, IMHO.

henkmol
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re: Diesels challenge hybrids for efficiency, low emissions
henkmol   9/22/2010 9:43:35 AM
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Hello Markogts, of course you have good points here. My reaction. 1. Emissions other than CO2. Sure the diesel engine running on diesel fuel has an issue reaching Euro 5. Fine soot particles and NOx emission are traditional problems of (not yet warm running) diesels. However, the R&D is now turning to running diesel combustion process with petrol like fuels or also very well possible running it on methane. This relieves the catalytic converter from having to deal with the soot. The CNG way is high potential with "big gas" replacing "big oil". 2. Energy efficiency. The average petrol engine otto cycle efficiency is under 22% mechanical output. This is why Toyota went to the Atkinson cycle which reaches nearly 31 % at its sweet spot. Combine this with electric traction to extend the rpm-torque range et voila overall 25% performance is feasible. Add brake energy recuperation and you gain another 10%. 3. A major hurdle in upscaling HEVs is the scarcity of technology metals, in particular the heavy rare earth additions needed to get high coercitive field strength at automotive temp of the rotors (typ 150 -180 deg C peak). The lack of in particular dysprosium is strangling the future motor production volume. Batteries may be a major problem today but there are at least alternatives such as the bipolar lead acid (weighing 50% more than same size same power same power density yttrium doped lithium iron phosphor oxide) Based on this I think that HEVs and complete EVs will evolve much slower than we would like to. In 2020 potential volumes run in the 10 million vehicles/year. So, remains for us as ordinary consumers the other 55+ million cars/year... the smelly old petrols and diesels. Whats your opinion?

henkmol
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re: Diesels challenge hybrids for efficiency, low emissions
henkmol   9/22/2010 10:00:47 AM
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Well that is what PSA in france is going to do later. Use a diesel + electric to recuperate the brake energy. At present the HEVs is mainly used by major auto oems to get the fleet averge CO2 emission into the legally prescribed level. Read well, the fleet average. So you start by cleaning up your prestigious models that people want to buy because it confirms the status they want to display... Why would you buy a gas guzzling large car or SUV? Its just Human to do so! It is beatifull, mighty, rich in its expression of your status and an expression of your wealth and social position. Look at the LX400H series hybrid SUVs - drive a large heavy car and yet have a CO2 performance of a middle size car.

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