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Windows 8 hurting PC market

4/12/2013 11:38 AM EDT
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joshxdr
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joshxdr   4/12/2013 4:45:13 PM
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Microsoft HAS to get into the tablet and smartphone market if they want to survive long term. They need to find a way to do this without alienating their current customer base. When I last checked, MS still had a monster pile of cash. The absolutely have to buy their way into this market. It is very worrying that their execution has been so poor up to this point. There is no reason for MS to fail at making an OS for tablets. Making operating systems for mass market computers has been their bread and butter for thirty years. Tablets and phones are not that different from PCs, just a bit smaller and simpler with a touch screen. Why was Surface so late? Why are the prices so high? Why is the performance so poor? Why can't they build a developer community? Maybe there needs to be some kind a major management purge at Microsoft.

paul.lobster
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paul.lobster   4/13/2013 2:27:18 AM
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Performance so poor ? That's a joke. Show your benchmarks. I have been using windows 7 for 2 years and windows 8 is way faster.

ooferwog
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ooferwog   4/16/2013 5:43:49 AM
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But you had to wait for Windows 8 to get your better performance, yes? Why are you so willing to be at Microsoft's mercy, gratefully accepting whatever crumbs they shove your way? And given their untarnished record of consistent inconsistency, who knows? Maybe their next release will another Vista, only more so. Or maybe not. Microsoft is like a Forrest Gump's Box of Chocolates, except with this box, they rather just shove them down your throat. It is their One Consistency.

pete22
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pete22   4/16/2013 11:02:49 AM
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I like to tone of your comment. Like you, I keep hoping that Microsoft can succeed. I thin all the W8 criticisms go away if MS just provides an update that allows you to boot into a familiar Window 7 mode. Come on MS! Please pull your head out of your you-know-what!

Duane Benson
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Duane Benson   4/12/2013 5:34:12 PM
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Windows 8 was designed to be a great tablet interface, PC interface, Xbox interface, phone interface and who knows what else. Yes. all of those thing need a user interface and all of them have computing power in them, but the overlap in usage requirements, in my opinion, is nowhere near enough to justify a single UI. It's pretty rare for a product that's designed to be all things to everyone comes out being anything other than mediocre for all things. I have and still maintain that a quick and easy way to switch a Windows 8 PC from the tablet UI to a desktop UI and back would solve a vast majority of the complaints. Microsoft people: Think about it. All of your prior OS's had an an easy to select "old UI" mode. Don't be stubborn. Try it, I bet you'll be happy you did.

old account Frank Eory
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old account Frank Eory   4/12/2013 5:58:22 PM
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The negative impact on desktop & notebook PC sales should be no surprise. Win 8 was too radical of a UI change in one iteration for many of those users. Win 8 may have actually caused an additional boost in sales of Win 7 machines in Q4 last year. I'm sure my wife wasn't the only one who asked for a new desktop PC for Christmas last year, for the sole reason that she "wanted to upgrade to the latest hardware while you can still get it with Windows 7."

joshxdr
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joshxdr   4/12/2013 6:55:09 PM
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Sorry for being hopelessly ignorant, but I thought windows 8 had a "classic" mode that looks like windows 7. Is this not true?

Loek.Frederiks_#2
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Loek.Frederiks_#2   4/12/2013 7:43:41 PM
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Yes, but IMHO it's too difficult for Joe Average Consumer. I am using Windows 8, but using ClassicShell you can totally avoid the new start screen and just use it as Windows 7+.

old account Frank Eory
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old account Frank Eory   4/12/2013 10:45:01 PM
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I had read about even before even trying Windows 8. It may not really be that difficult for Joe (or Jane) Average Consumer to learn how to enable ClassicShell, but if it doesn't just boot up that way, as "Windows 7+", it's going to be aggravating for those who would rather not have to do this.

paul.lobster
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paul.lobster   4/13/2013 2:21:13 AM
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Are you using windows 8 or just relying on all the negative bs posted by people not using it ?

paul.lobster
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paul.lobster   4/13/2013 2:20:25 AM
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why do you want to avoid the start screen ? I customized mine, added sections.. You can pin any app to the start screen.. New installed app just show up on the right... Pleas explain

paul.lobster
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paul.lobster   4/13/2013 2:19:17 AM
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Yes it does. See my comment to Duane. You press Windows_key+d and you are in desktop mode.... :) Windows_key put you back on start menu. I have been using windows 7 for more than 2 years and I love windows 8. I have installed all my windows 7 apps. Works just better. :) I don't understand what all this bs is about. I think most people don't even have a windows 8 install...

old account Frank Eory
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old account Frank Eory   4/15/2013 8:53:57 PM
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I have played with it, but you are correct -- I don't have a Win 8 install on any of my own machines. As for the "Windows+d" to switch to ClassicShell, sure that's easy enough. But to answer my wife's questions about multi-tasking -- she normally works with dual widescreen monitors and multiple apps open and visible simultaneously -- all I could say was that surely there must be a way to duplicate that experience in Win8, but at the time I couldn't say with certainty or how to do it. I now know that this is possible and not difficult, so perhaps the issue goes back to what other commenters have said about poor marketing and the emphasis on the "metro" UI and the one-app-at-a-time experience that mimics how tablets behave. That was very off-putting to Win7 users like my wife.

Duane Benson
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Duane Benson   4/18/2013 8:12:51 PM
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I ran Windows 8 in a VM for a number of months. I didn't find anything that can be done in Windows 7 couldn't be done in some way shape or form Windows 8. However, I found the organization on the desktop, the default to a mostly single-app metaphor, the limitations of extensibility on the start screen all made life more difficult for me than in Windows 7. Parts of it reminded me of back in the way-old days when file and program organization meant everything was a non-hierarchical dump of icons on the screen. I've heard great praise from the one person I know using a smart phone with that version of the Win 8 OS. This person wants a phone that just works and isn't overly complicated. It fits the bill very well for that. On my VM, I started using ClassicShell shortly before I stopped using Win 8. That did what I would like to see integrated. It brought back the organization, logic and useability that I like in earlier Windows versions. And, of course, it has an easy switch to the native Win 8. My opinion is that the vast majority of the complaints would disappear if Win 8 had an more complete, integrated and functional Win 7 UI switch. In my opinion, the Win 8 "desktop" looks thrown together as an afterthought, not designed for much actual use.

paul.lobster
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paul.lobster   4/13/2013 2:16:36 AM
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Ok, I have installed windows 8 yesterday and I was very skeptical after all what I read about it. I don't have a touchscreen. And I... love it. I don't understand what you mean. Are you using it ? Switching from windows 8 to desktop is one "double"key: Windows+d. You still have desktop and taskbar. You can pin any application to the start menu with a context pop up menu Going to desktop to start screen is one key: Windows_Key. I actually prefer the start screen to the start menu. I can create sections and I scroll with mouse wheel. So I ask my question again: are you using windows 8 ? I am baffled by all this negative press on windows 8. I just don't get it. Thanks. PL

Etmax
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Etmax   8/6/2013 11:59:53 AM
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Absolutely Duane, they made the same blunder when they completely changed Office to the ribbon I/F. Everybody had to retrain at imense cost or simply not upgrade which is what I decided. I use Office 2000 and guess what it still types letters and does spreadsheets. Now with the major OS UI change in W8 we have something that is so "something for everybody" that it's disfunctional for everyone. I have a Windows XP PC and an Android tablet and the UI shortcomings on the tablet make me switch to the PC for these blogs even because of quirks. If I was using W8 I wouldn't have a fall back position :-(. Why do I use XP? I use a PCB layout program that costs $22,000 and won't run on W7 or W8 so I don't upgrade for cost reasons, that $58 W8 upgrade would cost me $22,058, too expensive for an OS. On XP I can run DOS programs right up to WinXP programs, and then I hit a wall. I think there's going to be a future in making new PC's work with the old OS. :-) If it weren't for this MS would have made money on me upgrading to W7 ages ago, but now even if they were giving away W8 I wouldn't take it.

geekmaster
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geekmaster   4/12/2013 5:36:22 PM
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We needed a new laptop. I asked around how people liked Windows 8 and did not receive any positive feedback. However, I could not find any new laptop I needed without Windows 8. So, I bought it. Now I have it and still struggle with it. What I hate most is that almost all new machines come only with Windows 8.

paul.lobster
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paul.lobster   4/13/2013 2:22:34 AM
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Ok I need to understand. What do you ate about it ? I am NOT a Microsoft addict. I also use Linux, FreeBSD and others but I can't understand what's wrong with windows 8. I personally installed it yesterday and love it.

robt2627
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robt2627   4/15/2013 3:33:36 PM
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I have windows 8 on my laptop and I also thought it sucked. So, I installed Class Shell to make it look more like windows 7 or XP.

FrankCF
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FrankCF   4/15/2013 11:21:20 PM
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We now buy Lenovo laptops from CDW. They still come with Windows 7.

Etmax
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Etmax   8/6/2013 12:06:47 PM
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I'll let you in on a little secret, there's a free utility written by some lifesaver that makes a W8 PC operate like a W7 or XP PC. It still has the bland eye tiring Aero look but at least things operate the way they used to. It doesn't fix the SW incompatibilities they introduced, but at least you can operate it. Go to http://classicshell.net/. I have it on my wife's W8 laptop and a W7 computer I use to drive my milling machine. One word of caution, last time the windoze autoupdate ran it disabled the add-on and I had to reinstall it. I'm still looking into how I can stop that.

Bert22306
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Bert22306   4/12/2013 8:33:15 PM
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If Windows 8 has a UI that looks like Windows 7, or similar, then for the life of me, I can't figure out what the bother is. Why aren't Windows 8 PCs sold with that more classic UI set by default? Perhaps this is nothing more than a colossal mistake in advertizing and marketing. When the ads for Win 8 PCs show that ridiculous start screen, with gymongous icons, it certainly turns me off. Why wouldn't it have the same effect on everyone else? What makes sense for a Windows Phone or perhaps for a tablet (not necessarily the Surface tablet though), doesn't make sense for a PC. This is not hard to figure out.

paul.lobster
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paul.lobster   4/13/2013 2:23:52 AM
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You switch from start menu to desktop mode ( with taskbar but no start menu ) by pressing windows_key + d. You go back to your start screen with windows key alone. How shorter can it be ?

tb1
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tb1   4/12/2013 10:08:02 PM
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There are two things going on here: Microsoft sees the growth of tablets and smartphones that get access to software through apps, and wants to do this and have it work with their new OS. Meanwhile millions of people have a way of implementing the Windows UI into their workflow. They want software x, which is found at location y in the start menu, then they port it over to software z, which is found here. A new UI completely disrupts this workflow. Of course people can learn, but it takes time, and, at least in corporations, time is money. As Bert22306 says, what they -should- have done is make Windows 8 exactly like Windows 7, but with a button to press that brings up the Metro UI. This would have caused no disruption and people could take their time learning the new interface. Encourage people to use Windows 8. Don't force it down their throats. I was suspecting that Windows 8 is the reason PC sales are down (it is why I haven't upgraded my PC). The question is, will Microsoft learn their lesson with the next Windows 8 release?

paul.lobster
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paul.lobster   4/13/2013 2:26:20 AM
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Well ok, they decide to put the metro ui firs. Press Windows_key + d and you are in desktop mode. You can run whatever you want there. Even Norton commander if you are old school. What's wrong with that ? Maybe it's just that people can'spend one minute to figure it out and Microsoft should have added a banner at the top of the start screen: PRESS WINDOWS_KEY + D to go to desktop mode, PRESS WINDOWS_KEY to go back to start screen :)

robt2627
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robt2627   4/15/2013 3:42:45 PM
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It's not just defaulting to non-desktop mode that turns people off, in my opinion. It's the clumsy cartoonish icons and the way you have to grab the top of the window and drag downward to close a program. The OS was evidently designed with a touchscreen in mind but it just doesn't work well with a keyboard and mouse.

ooferwog
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ooferwog   4/16/2013 6:41:29 AM
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Why should one have to do any of this? The Magic Incantation to get a product to work in manner with which one is familiar, one which leverages the user's place on the learning curve, rather introducing yet another surprise to get use to? Why can't this company simply produce a better product that is consistent and well thought-out? As long as we are willing to accept cut-rate products at premium prices, we deserve what we get. Microsoft's products consistently violate established and proven guidelines for successful user-interface design. Cardinal Rule #1: Never, ever, ever surprise the user. Cardinal Rule #2: Always leverage what the user already knows, unless there is clear advantage to the user by introducing something new. Cluttered screens full of animated icons and browsers which expand to fill the screen by default and totally different motifs and layouts are not a compelling-enough reason to toss the user's learning curve out the window with each release, which is exactly what Microsoft has always done. So what if Windows 8 has better performance than Win7, when the unnecessary cosmetic changes reduce the user's own performance? Is our focus so exclusively on the machine's performance that the users' needs are just tossed by the wayside? Every new Windows release has failed to capitalize on what the user already knows. It is not as if people have nothing better to do with their time to sit around idly and learn anew what is essentially the same operating system, but with yet another, different coat of paint. Why? That Windows_Key + d/D is just a hack, like Windows has always been: a hack job. If any of this communicates a message to Microsoft's customers, it is this: we haven't a clue as to what you want or need in an operating system, and we care even less about your time. Just give us your money and get lost - until the next release. And we accept this.

ooferwog
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ooferwog   4/16/2013 7:24:28 AM
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Why should they 'learn their lesson' when they can count on us to buy their products regardless? Using Windows is, and always has been, a voluntary misfortune.

Chipguy1
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Chipguy1   4/13/2013 4:17:52 AM
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I have used windows 8. I just don't see any productivity improvement from touch on a 15in screen laptop. Sure I have and can learn the new OS. But what is the point of paying MS for new software and learning new software for no meaningful benefit. That I this is the crux of the problem

daleste
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daleste   4/13/2013 4:52:46 PM
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I've been using windows 7 for a few months and hate it. I would be fine with going back to window xp. I know that I would hate windows 8, so I have no motivation to even try it.

Etmax
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Etmax   8/6/2013 12:10:34 PM
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I'll let you in on a little secret, there's a free utility written by some lifesaver that makes a W8 PC operate like a W7 or XP PC. It still has the bland eye tiring Aero look but at least things operate the way they used to. It doesn't fix the SW incompatibilities they introduced, but at least you can operate it. Go to http://classicshell.net/. I have it on my wife's W8 laptop and a W7 computer I use to drive my milling machine. One word of caution, last time the windoze autoupdate ran it disabled the add-on and I had to reinstall it. I'm still looking into how I can stop that.

moronda
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moronda   4/13/2013 7:44:13 PM
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Windows 8 sucks. They need to add a windows 7 mode. Easy solution. Why so stubborn Microsoft? I don't want every app to open full screen, that's annoying. I miss my start button. You blew it big time MS.

Bert22306
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Bert22306   4/14/2013 10:20:18 PM
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Good point about every app opening full screen. When I first read about beta version of IE10, that's what the Microsoft blurbs on it were bragging about. The first full screen browser. Why would I want that? So I hesitated. It wasn't until I read a comment that you might not even notice the difference, with IE10 on a PC, that I downloaded and installed it. Still can't figure out why this nonsense about being a full screen browser. All browsers can be full screen, if you click the full screen icon. Big whoop. Perhaps most objections on Win8 fall in the same category. They are mostly based on poor advertizing and marketing decisions by Microsoft. Not on the actual product.

ooferwog
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ooferwog   4/16/2013 5:58:30 AM
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Speaking of advertising faux pas, consider a few of their more recent advert campaigns: "Imagine...Life Without Walls" The first thing that occurred to me when I saw this advert: "Without Walls...Who the Hell Needs Windows?" Next: Microsoft Azure. Azure is a shade of blue. Now ask yourself, "What else is Microsoft famous for, something also having a shade of blue?" Why, the infamous BSOD, the Blue Screen of Death. So they named their new product after a shade of blue. Doh. Next, Microsoft comes up with a new logo for Windows 8: four panes, all blue. Not only is the new logo bland, it suggests the soon-to-be-fashionable QSOD - Quad Screen of Death. One might wonder who inside Microsoft is holding a grudge. That, or they're just plain stupid.

TarraTarra!
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TarraTarra!   4/15/2013 5:59:21 AM
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Is it really windows 8 that is the cause or was the PC market slowing in any case and people were hoping for miracles. Windows7 to 8 transition is not at all that bad. I remember the past windows launches from windows95 to windows vista and those were god-awful products but people bought them in droves (including myself). The sad irony is that windows8 with its touch interface is actually quite neat once you get used to it.

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ebob2k   4/15/2013 5:21:35 PM
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The Win8 touch interface might be 'quite neat', but there are, as backed up by the sales figures, many PC users who will not move on to a new PC because they do not want to be saddled with what is, in effect, a tablet OS on their PC. That 'neat' touch interface is 'quite useless' for PCs, and that is on top of the poorly laid out menus and navigation that PC users are forced to use. I really wish MS had hit a home run with Win8, but they didn't because they seem to have taken the lazy route: One OS to fit all platforms, rather than a separate version for each platform. As a result, their sales for the OS are down, and most PC manufacturers are suffering because of a stupid, and unadmitted, MS tactical blunder.

JeffHall
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JeffHall   4/15/2013 3:32:07 PM
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I purchased a new laptop computer in November of last year. The computer had all the hardware I was looking for (i7 processor and nVidea graphics) and a great price. I knew it had W8 but I having lived through many iterations of windows, I figured I could adapt. The interface, as it boots up is awkward, not intuitive, and worst of all screen switching occurred when the touchpad was swiped. I tried for 5 months to adapt and live with the monster. I gave up last week and bought a copy of W7 and installed it. Finally - relief.

DMcCunney
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DMcCunney   4/15/2013 3:48:51 PM
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We are seeing what is likely inevitable convergence. The goal is the *same* OS running on whatever device you happen to have. With an ARM build for Win8, MS has an OS that can run on desktop, laptop, tablet, and smartphone. Apple is moving in that direction, and I would not be surprised to see iOS subsume OS/X and become the only OS on Apple gear. Linux is moving in that direction, with Android dominating the tablet ans smartphone markets, and a beta X86 port that will run on a desktop. What gets forgotten is that while one OS may fit all platforms, one UI does not. Having the classic shell as the default for Win8 installs on desktops and laptops would help a great deal. That said, I think IDG overestimates the negative effect of Win8 on PC sales. The first issue is that the PC market is mature and largely saturated. Pretty much everyone who can use one has one. There is still a substantial market, but it's upgrades and replacements, not new sales. There simply isn't the *growth* beloved of the financial markets. The second is that most folks get a new version of Windows when they get a new machine with it preinstalled. Previous upgrade cycles have been driven by hardware upgrades. We are now at a point where the hardware is arguably powerful enough to handle most of what users do, and there's no particular reason to go out and get a bigger, faster machine. What does Win8 have to offer that is compelling enough to drive updates? What does it offer existing users that is a clear improvement over the Win7 or older machine they use now? And there's evidence the corporate market has been lengthening upgrade schedules, It used to be a three year life for a system, and now it's more like five. I think we'd see a decline in PC sales if Win8 *weren't* available, simply because the market is mature and there's less reason to buy. Blaming Win8 for the decline overstates the case.

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BobsView   4/15/2013 3:53:51 PM
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I bought a Windows 8 desktop back in November, hated it for a week, then figured out you could get Windows 7 by pushing the "Windows" key on the keyboard. Push it again, back to Windows 8. It toggles between Windows 8 and 7 every time you push it. What could be simpler? For the purists, it's not really Windows 7, just looks and feels like it. But way-way faster. This computer rips, and it cost less than $500. And any program that works on Windows 7 will also work in this mode. Never had a program not load. But the real reason for declining PC sales is this; the vast majority of people in the world don't need a computer. What do they do? Mostly email, Facebook, Online Banking, Photos, Google, watch movies. In the future, I foresee the only people with computers will be technical (engineers), students, accountants, and salesmen. Everyone else could easily get by with a Notepad. And that, I believe is the real reason for declining sales of PC's.

pcardout
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pcardout   4/15/2013 4:25:15 PM
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"Bob" and I share this view. PCs were originally for engineers and hackers and then IBM/MS and Apple made them for 'the rest of us'. Meanwhile your average user never understood or used most of the capabilities of a computer, and got freaked out over superficial UI changes because they didn't understand the guts (a helplessness that both Apple and MS encourage in my view). Now that they can get what they want from a tablet they ditch the computer that they didn't need anyway. As a scientist/engineer I have benefited from being able to buy cheap powerful hardware driven by huge volumes. Hope this lasts!! (And of course I've been using Linux for years so I don't have to put up with MS randomly changing stuff for no good reason).

FBMcGalliard
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FBMcGalliard   4/15/2013 5:21:49 PM
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Fundamental error. Most people need to write letters to family and friends that are longer than 3 sentences, have edited immages/movies imbedded, and need to do homework for school and the like. They just can't afford it, even at $500.

gatorfan
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gatorfan   4/15/2013 4:04:47 PM
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It's very simple: confusing product makes for a confused market. Someone try to describe in a few words what Windows 8 "IS" and then a few words why I would want it. Good luck. And I bet you get 10 people with 10 different answers. Marketing 101: never confuse your customer, or you will pay dearly for it.

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Peter Clarke   4/15/2013 5:25:31 PM
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One thing I have noticed this spring is that Microsoft and its PC partners made strong efforts to make sure that only Windows 8 computers were on show in computer sales outlets. The Windows 7 machines all suddently disappeared, and the PC pricing, with exceptions went up a couple of hundred pounds to around the 400 to 500 mark ($700 to $800). I think that persuaded some people either to try a lower cost tablet.

FBMcGalliard
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FBMcGalliard   4/15/2013 5:28:42 PM
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If you are willing to memorize a complex series of clicks and key strokes you can Write a love letter to your girl. research and write a school paper. Search for a good job. manage and edit your family pictures - all 300,000 of them. Manage your family budget and spreadsheet your plans for the future. Present data to convince your wife that the new Tesla is a good buy for your family car. Write a script to simplify your task, or to confuse the heck out of your room mate. The only thing win8 does to this is mod the number, and obscurity, of the steps you have to pass through to do these things.

Sparky_Watt
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Sparky_Watt   4/15/2013 5:35:09 PM
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The thing I don't like about the Windows 8 UI is flatly that it is horrendously cluttered. I have seen demos in which there are 20 apps RUNNING in icons on the screen. It is like trying to watch 20 web cams at the same time. I know that you don't have to have all that stuff up, but it seems to me that its major selling points are really negatives.

geekmaster
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geekmaster   4/15/2013 5:39:28 PM
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When is the next version or update of Windows 8 coming out? I hope for some improvement.

ooferwog
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ooferwog   4/16/2013 7:32:14 AM
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Why don't you try some of the other operating systems Out There? Ubuntu linux, for instance? You download it for free (yes, free. What a concept) AND its source code if you're a real trooper, and put it on a USB stick or a CD or DVD and boot off of it? If you decide you like it, you install it. Try it. Linux has come a long way and its very friendly. And totally free.

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GordonScott   4/15/2013 5:59:05 PM
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I've noticed for a long time that there are two styles of 'my desktop' that people use. Some have all their applications and/or data on the desktop, others organise things into hierarchies, either by program in the start menu, or by project/data in the directory/folder tree. I suspect that the former group like "The Interface Formerly Known As Metro" (TIFKAM), whilst the latter group hate it. I'm in the latter group ... why may I now not have a hierarchical applications menu? The 'one application at a time' arrangement in TIFKAM is also a _bad_ idea for me as I almost always have multiple applications open _and_in_use_ concurrently. I'm told TIFKAM allows a different configuration for each of multiple screens, which may help, but I presently remain sceptical. At this moment I have open two IDEs (one for the embedded application, one for the PC program with which to communicate with that), two editor windows, ditto, several Acrobat reader copies with datasheets, schematics, assemby drawings and user-manuals, some terminal sessions for quicker access to to source files, mail, browser, and a couple of folder viewers. I also use but don't presently have open some CAD packages. I cannot presently see how TIFKAM can possible function in this kind of environment. At this moment, that lot is on Linux, spread across three desktop workspaces. On Windows of any flavour, I'm already squeezed into a single workspace.

mtanner
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
mtanner   4/15/2013 6:00:00 PM
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Simple solution to upgrading w/o win8, buy a mac.

ooferwog
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
ooferwog   4/16/2013 7:34:37 AM
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Linux. Screw proprietary operating systems. Apple is becoming a Designed in California/Made in China M$ Wannabe.

BobsView
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
BobsView   4/15/2013 6:17:47 PM
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On my current Windows 8 desktop, which has 8 GB RAM, a 1.5 TB HD and cost me $439, I can run Electromagnetic Simulations using Sonnet, work on an Excel Spreadsheet, author a paper using WORD, and have EE Times running in the background - all at the same time. Sure, Mac's are wonderful, but where can I buy one for under $500 to do the same thing?

someEmbeddedGuy
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
someEmbeddedGuy   4/15/2013 7:21:34 PM
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A few months ago my wife and I went out to buy a Windows based notebook computer. We opted not to buy anything after the only OS we could get at a retail store was Windows 8. The sales guy said our response was not unusual... Win XP or Win 7 are reasonable OS alternatives and provide for a great user experience. I would ask Microsoft to please listen to their customers, swallow a bit of pride, and bring back at least Windows 7 as a consumer choice.

joshxdr
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
joshxdr   4/16/2013 11:04:22 AM
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WinXP is outdated and insecure at this point in time. You would be making a big mistake by installing XP on a new PC.

Sam.Saprunoff
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
Sam.Saprunoff   4/15/2013 7:40:49 PM
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Another issue with Win 8 is its enforcement/prevention of loading any uncertified/signed drivers. On the surface this may not be a bad thing, but what about old legacy programs/drivers that people still need to use? Yes, one can disable driver enforcement, but this is resets on the next boot/power cycle... Quite honestly I do not need Microsoft or anyone else being my big brother for what apps/drivers I want or need to use. The second item is Microsoft quietly introducing UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) or secure boot... effectively Microsoft is forcing PC manufactures to embed UEFI which prevents non certified O/S's from booting... and Microsoft is the only vendor that can provide security certificates... Thankfully the Linux community is addressing this, but again it disturbs me that Microsoft is over stepping their bounds in the manner they have.

ooferwog
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
ooferwog   4/16/2013 4:12:59 AM
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Sam writes: "Quite honestly I do not need Microsoft or anyone else being my big brother for what apps/drivers I want or need to use." Exactly. And rather than listening to their customers - really listening and taking their input to heart - Microsoft sticks with Ye Olde Tried and True "We know what's best for you so shaddup and puddup." No thanks. Its a New Day, and one old, fat, has-been monkey don't make no show. Just ask Detroit.

ooferwog
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
ooferwog   4/16/2013 5:12:24 AM
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"The second item is Microsoft quietly introducing UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) or secure boot... effectively Microsoft is forcing PC manufactures to embed UEFI which prevents non certified O/S's from booting... and Microsoft is the only vendor that can provide security certificates... Thankfully the Linux community is addressing this, but again it disturbs me that Microsoft is over stepping their bounds in the manner they have." This is not a new practice and it is not all that different than what used to be practiced by mining companies in the United States. Mines issued company 'script' which could only be redeemed at the Company Store. In this way, the company could place enormous markups on goods, making workers completely dependent on the company, thus enforcing their "loyalty" to the company. With UEFI, Microsoft would exclude all but their software from running on users' machines. PC hardware manufacturers better take note: Microsoft isn't the only game in town - nor the world. If they knuckle under Microsoft dictatorial demands, they'll soon find themselves queuing up at the soup kitchen. The world doesn't need Microsoft. I will not buy PC hardware on which only Microsoft's products will run. I have choices; good choices, too. Its not longer the case where we're stuck with even two choices: Windows or Mac. We've got dozens with more on the way. Microsoft still thinks it's 1989 and that they own the show. Ain't so. And as far as I'm concerned, they can go piss off. I don't need the Redmond Dinosaur. Nor does anyone else.

Doug Hosford
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
Doug Hosford   4/15/2013 9:18:26 PM
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Win 8 forces the same touch screen oriented interface on tablets and PCs. It might be OK for a tablet, but it is terrible for a non-touchscreen PC. What are they thinking? That we will go out and buy Microsoft tablets after we have grown to hate win 8 on our PCs?

ooferwog
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
ooferwog   4/16/2013 7:36:43 AM
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You're going to have to wait until Vista II for M$ bloatware to have the smarts to detect the presence/absence of a touchscreen. Until then, use Windows_Key + d/D to switch back and forth. (psst: it's the 21st Century. Time to move on)

rick merritt
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
rick merritt   4/15/2013 11:28:43 PM
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The issue here is that PC sales are falling. The cause is a lack of any PC-related innovations in Win 8 to make an upgrade compelling. Grafting a touchscreen on Win7 and creating a tablet does nothing for PC value.

Duane Benson
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
Duane Benson   4/18/2013 8:47:55 PM
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Re: "The issue here is that PC sales are falling. The cause is a lack of any PC-related innovations in Win 8 to make an upgrade compelling." Bingo. This sentiment will get me to delay a purchase. On the other hand, the actual look and feel of the OS will cause me to complain and suggest improvements, but would not delay a needed purchase. I've used and adjusted to just about every Microsoft OS, going back to DOS. If I need a new PC and it comes with 8, I'll buy and use it, but I just don't see the value in upgrading.

Etmax
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
Etmax   8/6/2013 12:28:17 PM
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Hi Rick, I'd like to add the qualification that PC sales are falling because you can only get Win8 on them. If you could have a choice of XP, W7, and W8 we would see less people holding off buying a PC. I've been rebuilding my PC's ever since Vista came out needing me to get a new printer and a lot of other stuff. Win7 made things a little so better I bought one to run my milling machine, but my main office computer needs to run $22,000 program which won't run on Vista/W7/W8 which means I keep rebuilding it instead of buying a new one. I think copyright laws for SW should be changed such that once a publisher no longer supports a particular program it should lose copyright protection. Then we would see DOS thru to W8 all sold side by side and MS (the company, not the disease) would be forced to listen to customers.

pica0
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
pica0   4/16/2013 1:09:06 PM
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Why there must always be a single one to blame? Yes, Windows 8 has a bad press. The reason IMHO is bad marketing rather than bad technology. But the PC market is saturated, the financial situation in the USA and Europe is far from brilliant, many people now prefer tablets over PCs, ... There are many reasons. Surely, Windows 8 is a factor. But not the only.

Charly..2
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
Charly..2   4/20/2013 5:25:43 PM
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Its an easy fix. Just ordered a new laptop and for an extra $50 they are downgrading WIN 8 to WIN 7 as part of the deal.

talouship
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
talouship   4/20/2013 10:10:15 PM
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good move

Peter Clarke
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
Peter Clarke   7/15/2013 4:20:36 AM
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But doesn't it say something about Microsoft and its technoloogy when you have to pay them extra money not to introduce an improvement/change?

sixscrews
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re: Windows 8 hurting PC market
sixscrews   4/22/2013 6:02:25 PM
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An OS marketed as designed for touch screens then sold on non-touch screen machines is either doomed or will doom the manufacturers on non-touch screen computers. We are seeing the results. It's the marketing, stupid, not the technology. And I like Windows 8 when fitted with a tablet-screen-buster app. I have an instance running in a VM on this box - but I haven't had a reason to fire it up in months. Without the marketing hype MS has to come up with a compelling reason to shift to Win8. They haven't - unless you call UEFI compelling rather than coercive. Steve Jobs, when faced with catastrophic sales figures for the early macs, promised to make the product successful if he had to market it with 'smoke and mirrors' - what followed was decades of PC bashing and the eventual development of iOS, one of the most user-restrictive operating systems of all time. As an earlier post alluded to, company scrip will keep 'em coming back to the company store. If your machine will only run vendor-approved apps what choice do you have? But it's possible this whole discussion is academic - in four years we may all be using Chrome-based devices and explaining how Apple AND MS blew it - I hope so... sixscrews

Jackson177
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Win 8
Jackson177   7/12/2013 12:59:43 AM
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It is typcial arrogence that a company like ms and intel decide what we want and if we don't well then we must be stupid because they told us we wanted it.

 

Thatis alwys the first sign of a big company about to collape (IBM and OS/2 come to mnd)

KB3001
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Re: Win 8
KB3001   7/29/2013 6:52:20 AM
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Could not agree more. Thankfully, with the mobile revolution, consumers have more choice. The sooner we move away from PCs the better for all of us.

mcgrathdylan
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Re: Win 8
mcgrathdylan   7/29/2013 2:19:30 PM
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@KB3001-

"The sooner we move away from PCs the better for all of us."

I agree ina  sense. But I don't know that we are going to completely abandon the PC. In fact I doubt it. For employees like me who are basically chained to our desks all day, the PC is still the best platform for getting things done. I've heard some analysts say that PC sales will level off and stagnate, but they aren't going to fall off the table completely. People will continue to buy PCs, as will businesses. The biggest change is that people aren't going to buy like 5 PCs for their home. They'll probably just have one and a tablet or several tablets.

KB3001
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Re: Win 8
KB3001   7/29/2013 5:35:37 PM
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@mcgrathdylan, I think what you really need is a large enough display and an easy user interface for typing, that does not have to equate to having a PC, it's an overkill. 

Patk0317
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Re: Win 8
Patk0317   7/29/2013 11:49:05 PM
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Another factor is that with so many choices, people are not updating their laptops at the same rate they did a few years ago - there has been no real advantage. I have a laptop, a tablet, and a smartphone. Of the three, I use the phone the most, but when I have to use an application like a design tool, it has to be on the laptop. These tools do not run on tablets or phones in most cases.

mcgrathdylan
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Re: Win 8
mcgrathdylan   7/30/2013 12:30:24 AM
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@Patk0317- right, and that's a really good point. You can get by doing basic stuff on your phone or tablet, but when it comes to really intensive applications, the kind of stuff people used to (and still do) use workstations for, I don't think either one of those devices are going to cut it. That said, there are really not that many people using design tools, or doing things like professional video editing where you need all of that performance and memory.

To KB's point, I've actually thought for a long time that eventually your phone will be your PC, and you will have something like a docking station with a monitor and a keyboard for when you are doing things like work processing, etc. It's only a matter of time before a smartphone has the processing power required. Some already do.

Tom Murphy
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Re: Win 8
Tom Murphy   7/29/2013 3:09:14 PM
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KB:  You said: "The sooner we move away from PCs the better for all of us."

Perhaps you were just dashing off a quick thought, but I'm curious why you feel that way. 

My own sense is that PCs will be around as long as enough people find them useful to continue using them. Even with all the alternatives available today, that time does not seem as though it is rushing towards us.   Tablets and phones give us more ways to connect, but I don't see them entirely replacing PCs any time soon.

If you genuinely believe it would be "better for all of us" to move away from PCs, please explain why, and -- if you'd like -- please add an estimate of when you think that could happen: 5 years, 10, 15?

 

KB3001
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Re: Win 8
KB3001   7/29/2013 5:31:07 PM
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Certainly. To me, PC era = Wintel duopoly dominance = less competition = lower customer value. Mobile/protable = large/open eco-system of hardware and software providers = more competition = higher customer value.

KB3001
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Re: Win 8
KB3001   7/29/2013 5:32:24 PM
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As of estimate, I would say within the next 10 years.

Tom Murphy
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Re: Win 8
Tom Murphy   7/29/2013 5:38:13 PM
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Thanks on both counts, KB.  My sense talking to peers is that people who used to fear Wintel at the turn of the century today wonder why Apple is charging so much for phones built by people who are paid so little.  With technology changing as fast as it does, they may be worried more about Google next, or something else.  But I suspect you and I will both be surprised what the dominant worry is a decade from now. And, yes, it's nice to have choices.

 

frose926
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Windows 8 is a piece of crap
frose926   7/12/2013 9:00:11 AM
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I just bouthg a new Laptop that came with Windows 8. The new GUI is very frustrating. It seems that Microsoft likes to re-invent the wheel with new releases of software and this time, with Win 8, they have created a pile of CRAP!

Huey
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Can't eat all at once
Huey   7/12/2013 9:42:56 AM
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I just hate it, and I knew why.. MS just tried to eat everything at once, pc, tab, cell, mini, RT.. and who knows what else. MS might think people are just following whatever they say. I bought a great hardware for my wife, but I wish it has the 7.

EE,etc.
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declining PC market is a natural phenoomena
EE,etc.   7/12/2013 1:35:20 PM
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in my opinion, the whole consumer market is trendimng toward mobility with great flexibility and signifacnt features that are availble now in smartphones and tablets.

whether we like or not, the PC market will be more and more limited to industry and offices and will disappear from homes and I believe that is not casued by Microsoft Win 8 becuse any capability that PC consumer wants are currently availble in Win 7 anyway.

I am sure like it was done before in Win XP and Win 7, there will be a setting to set the Win 8 UI to classic appearence which should satisfy the classic users.

globalpos
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Re: declining PC market is a natural phenoomena
globalpos   7/27/2013 1:39:34 PM
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Yes, exactly...for those who we are in the 40s, we find the mobility a beauty perhaps in the same proportion to have the library (Internet) in our hands...

Luis Sanchez
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witnessing a change
Luis Sanchez   7/25/2013 11:33:34 AM
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I say we're all seeing a change in the market. And many times, changes affect some and benefit others. People are buying more Tablets and smarphones. And even the Tablets with keyboards are perhaps better than the new laptops. 

The slom ultrabooks are fragil. Mine's screen was broken. Ultrabook isn't child proof.

 

Charles.Desassure
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Windows 8...
Charles.Desassure   7/26/2013 3:07:24 PM
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So you are telling me that the PC market is slowing down because of Windows 8?  Wow!  That's a very strong statement.  Could it simply be that people want to buy a tablet?  I think we need further studies first.  I will wait before I make my opinion on this topic.

mcgrathdylan
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Re: Windows 8...
mcgrathdylan   7/26/2013 3:12:48 PM
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I don't know that the PC market is slowing down because of Windows 8. I think it's pretty clear that its a combination of factors, including changing consumer tastes and interest in tablets.

But I also think that the fact that Windows 8 hasn't been that well received has created a situation in which the masses are not flocking to buy new PCs the way they did when other new Windows versions rolled out.

Caleb Kraft
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Re: Windows 8...
Caleb Kraft   7/26/2013 3:43:56 PM
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There's also a lack of software upgrades to push the windows 8 switch. Windows 7 brought new versions of Office and many games that really weren't happy on previous versions. 

Many many people were still on Windows XP, in fear of vista when windows 7 was released, thats a huge time gap. Windows 7 vs windows 8 isn't that big. People had major incentive to upgrade then and they just don't now. To many, windows 7 is still brand new. 

Charles.Desassure
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Re: Windows 8...
Charles.Desassure   7/26/2013 3:48:24 PM
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Yes Caleb, some businesses are just upgrading to Windows 7 in my area.  Some businesses just don't have the budget for continuous upgrade every one or two years. 

Caleb Kraft
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Re: Windows 8...
Caleb Kraft   7/26/2013 3:52:32 PM
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when I was in IT a couple years ago, we were still mixed between windows 7 and XP. 

XP was released in 2001, Win7 in late 2009. In any production environment you wait a while for the bugs to get smashed, so lets say Win7 didn't even enter the picture till mid 2010. That is a huge gap. I'll bet companies that have embraced Win7 are still transitioning their documentation and practices over to the new methods. It will be a while before they are ready to do it again. maybe Win9 or Win OSX(haha). 

Peter Clarke
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Re: Windows 8...
Peter Clarke   7/29/2013 5:04:43 AM
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I also think there was an effect whereby vendors tried to take Windows 7 machines off sale and offer Windows 8 PCs at an increased price.

I think that triggered some potential customers to think EITHER i will go to a tablet  becaue it is lower cost and offers enough functionality....OR (at that price) I might as well pay a bit more and have an Apple computer.

 

 

 

 

mcgrathdylan
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Re: Windows 8...
mcgrathdylan   7/29/2013 12:55:54 PM
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Yeah, I agree. PC vendors jacked up the price on models when they went to Win 8. And I think that did cause some people to rethink whether they really wanted to pull the trigger.

Peter Clarke
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Re: Windows 8 jacking the price
Peter Clarke   7/30/2013 5:06:29 AM
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I think the computer sales channel was trying to break out of the price war and heavy discounting that had become prevalent in the Wintel PC space; trying to reset expectations.

The trouble is they increased the distance between themselves and tablets at the bottom end and narrowed the distance between themselves and MacBook Air at the top end.

No doubt the discounting will come back in

Peter Clarke
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Re: Windows 8...
Peter Clarke   7/29/2013 5:04:43 AM
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I also think there was an effect whereby vendors tried to take Windows 7 machines off sale and offer Windows 8 PCs at an increased price.

I think that triggered some potential customers to think EITHER i will go to a tablet  becaue it is lower cost and offers enough functionality....OR (at that price) I might as well pay a bit more and have an Apple computer.

 

 

 

 

globalpos
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Re: Windows 8...
globalpos   7/27/2013 1:37:58 PM
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Everybody's ideas are correct.  However, the fact you have a powerful Microprocessor in your hands, mobile, everywhere seems disruptive for what we considered computing in the past.

 

We are moving from Mainframes to PC everywhere and now Processors in every person...just an evolution where always some technology is not feasible anymore.

 

Same thing happened to telegraph with the advent of phone lines, and the same is happening to phone lines against cellulars...

rick merritt
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Win7 anyone?
rick merritt   7/31/2013 10:25:59 AM
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I'm still trying to get over the pain of a move to Windows 7.

And I;m in therapy for abuse from WinXP ;-)

Peter Clarke
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Re: Win7 anyone?
Peter Clarke   7/31/2013 10:38:08 AM
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I am very content with Windows 7

It seems to have been rock solid compared with earlier Windows iterations. 

Tom Murphy
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Re: Win7 anyone?
Tom Murphy   7/31/2013 11:03:54 AM
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Rick, Peter: Are you both Mac guys?  I ask because I found XP to be very stable and Win 7 was an effortless upgrade. I know the press has given Windows 8 a hard time, but I found it incredibly intuitive when I tried it on a tablet.  I realize I'm playing the devil's advocate here, but perhaps the media has scared off many would-be buyers.  Just sayin...

Peter Clarke
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Re: Win7 anyone?
Peter Clarke   7/31/2013 11:53:34 AM
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I have experience with WinXP Win7 and have used Mac.....I am more of a PC person than Mac person....

 

A Metcalfe
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Re: Win7 anyone?
A Metcalfe   8/6/2013 6:58:22 PM
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XP SP3 is/was bulletproof and could have lasted another 5 years in the business market. Microsoft need REPEAT sales, not just new ones so they make profound changes on a regular basis out of greed.
This time it turned around and bit them bigtime, and they probably deserve the pain. I use WIN7 happily, and will resist WIN8 for as long as possible.
Lesson learned? Probably not.

betajet
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Re: Win7 anyone?
betajet   7/31/2013 1:49:47 PM
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I rather like Windows 2000.  It's all been downhill since then IMO.  YMMV

Max The Magnificent
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Re: Win7 anyone?
Max The Magnificent   7/31/2013 3:16:34 PM
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@betajet: I rather like Windows 2000.  It's all been downhill since then

I recall being very discruntled when I was forced to migrate from Win 95 to Win 98 (LOL)


I was OK with XP, and I am very happy with Windows 7.

My wife got a computer with Windows 8 .. trying to work my way around that made my brains leak out of me ears

DLH Eng
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Re: Win7 anyone?
DLH Eng   7/31/2013 10:12:36 PM
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Micro$oft just keeps making Linux look better and better...

Susan Rambo
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Re: Win7 anyone?
Susan Rambo   7/31/2013 10:25:08 PM
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Is this what I'm missing by always being on a Mac? I've been on a Mac most of working career because I worked in print. I'm sorry for your pain. 

Jinx67
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Re: Win7 anyone?
Jinx67   8/2/2013 5:38:17 AM
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Meanwhile.

 

Working as a Microsoft authorized refurbisher, I can state that sales are at record highs and have been since Jan 2013. Simple explanation the refurbished PC market with Windows 7 Professional is booming.

Retired higher end core 2 duo and Athlon X2 *(or better) 3gb memory and a minimum of 200gb drive space is apparently a viable alternative for buyers disenfranchised by the tablet centric Windows 8 release, and simply looking to do the basics in key & mouse oriented desktop environment .

Seeing as how OEM manufacturers for reasons of their own no longer offer up Windows 7 as a chioce when purchasing a new PC. I can only assume this trend will continue until some "must have innovation" sways buyers back towards new purchases.

Personal opinion follows it appears that Microsoft has ironically done exactly the opposite. Actually stripping key features from it's Windows 8 release. Customers usually ask the following.

Is Media center still free in this version? "usually when purchasing a media center PC". Can I set up pop email accounts from my office at home? And ocassionally can I create multiple backups if I need to. Can I play a dvd when i take it home? Will this version run XP Mode?

Fortunately we can answer "yes on all fronts" as opposed to the unfortunate soul at a retail outlet. Who has no recourse at that point but to touch the screen and slide metro to and fro. I really feel bad for them, honestly having to try and pedal a desktop with amazing hardware specifications, and a watered down cartoonish tablet centric OS. Which barely utilizes the hardwares potential and makes it difficult (difficult as in not quite impossible) to operate and navigate efficiently.

I'm sure some one will state that Windows 8 is easy to use. I have to agree if your using it on what it's designed for it is easy. But if your attempting to acess control panels on a desktop it becomes  painfully apparent that it's simply not as fluid as it's predecessor.

 

 

 

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