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rick merritt
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Do you still believe in EUV?
rick merritt   2/25/2014 1:51:04 PM
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Looks like a case of Herculean efforts but modest progress to me.

resistion
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
resistion   2/25/2014 4:10:18 PM
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Just looking at the data it's not revived EUV hope but continuing reality.

resistion
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
resistion   2/25/2014 7:48:40 PM
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At SPIE 2008, TSMC published a paper which talked about shot noise for the different lithography technologies and its impact on CD uniformity. EUV already had trouble in this area at 30 nm, so for the 20 nm size applications, it would have a prohibitive impact on minimum dose requirements, as that would drive up the source power requirement many times beyond the currently already difficult-to-reach target level.

The paper title is "Influence of Shot Noise on CDU with DUV, EUV, and E-Beam"

JimMcGregor
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
JimMcGregor   2/25/2014 7:07:20 PM
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Rick, I would agree. The process is gaining in complexity and while EUV still holds potential, the feasibility of the technology remains in question.

zewde yeraswork
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
zewde yeraswork   2/26/2014 9:32:15 AM
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EUV is an interesting avenue for making chips faster and smaller and dealing with the upcoming end to Moore's Law, but it's far from a sure thing that's true.

yangcoloy
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
yangcoloy   2/26/2014 2:30:37 AM
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EUV feels like the old 157nm. However, as there is not an innovation like water immersion yet.

wilber_xbox
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
wilber_xbox   2/26/2014 1:07:37 PM
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We should look beyound the lithography tool solutions. We should modify the design rule and make relatively simple chips. I think we have already missed the deadline on 7nm EUV with the current source power.

rick merritt
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
rick merritt   2/26/2014 11:07:07 PM
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If we have to go multipatterning at 7nm--how bad is it? How many times through the litho machine? How much added cost? Ripple effects on chip customers?

wilber_xbox
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
wilber_xbox   2/27/2014 7:21:01 AM
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The problems are not only about lithography but much more for example planarization, multiple masks, metrology etc. What i have seen, the cost will increase exponentially but the ROI will be only additive.

ScottenJ
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
ScottenJ   2/27/2014 10:09:13 AM
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Having attended both of the talks referenced in the article I was surprised by the articles optimistic title and tone. I thought the tone of the talks was generally negative. TSMC in particular really called out ASML not only on the source power but the source reliability as well.

I think in general the mood at the conference is skepticism on EUV and a growing confidence that the 14nm, 10nm, 7nm and even 5nm node can be done without it!

Gridded arrays are being adopted by logic greatly simplifying the difficulty of printing patterns.

Self-Aligned Quadruple patterning is being employed today to make cost effective 16nm NAND Flash. The emerging 3D NAND technologies are already producing 1x equivalent class NAND using 50nm lithography.

A number of talks showed novel combinations of multi patterning techniques with shrink technology that could meet logic requirements at least down to the 7nm node.

The next generation of immersion tools currently being introduced is capable of 250 wafers per hour increasing productivity and reducing cost.

Yes the idea of Octuple Patterning with up to 9 cut masks is economically daunting but there are a number of design and process technologies that can likely mitigate a lot of that. Smart designs, shrink techniques, etc. can all reduce the number of cut masks. There is also a lot of work being done on cost reducing multi patterning by simplification and less expensive material and equipment choices.

EUV may still have its day but even without it the industry appears to be positioning itself to move forward.

eejack
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV? (question is, do the primes believe?)
eejack   2/27/2014 10:47:09 AM
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The drive lasers continue to fall short. Maybe they will reach the 43KW (in Cymer's case) needed, but that's just for minimum commercial viability. The current drive laser technology is far from practical as a means to build towards the cited ~1KW EUV needed for full sustainability of EUVL.  Yet the two primary players have both chosen a path of non-interest in a new generation of CO2 laser technology that bypasses the limitations of the current ones. With volumetric extraction about 3 times as high, practically scalable, Helium free with low to no gas usage, coupled with low maintenance requirements and almost unlimited shelf and dynamic lifetime, one would expect such a laser design would be of interest to them. 

If the benefits of a vastly improved drive laser is considered unimportant, one wonders just what plans they have made to mitigate not achieving EUVL as envisioned. Maybe they no longer believe in it and are pursuing tracks of which we are not yet aware.

rick merritt
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV? (question is, do the primes believe?)
rick merritt   2/27/2014 6:26:03 PM
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@eejack: I suspect you are right. There are probably some pretty interesting shoes yet to fall.

rick merritt
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
rick merritt   2/27/2014 6:28:36 PM
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@ScottenJ: Thankls for your take from the event, especially the other sessions you saw.

Have you heard any estimates of the kinds of cost adders people might see with quad and octal patterning?

ScottenJ
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
ScottenJ   2/27/2014 6:59:49 PM
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I haven't seen good cost estimates but that is actually my primary area of experitise these days.  I am currently working with several lithography and materials experts on detailed comparisons of all of the alternatives.

I can say that Intel has detailed plans through 10nm and they are forecasting that their cost per die is going to continue to go down ~30% for each of the 14nm and 10nm nodes. Intel is a little bit unique at the moment in that they are doing a full srink at 14nm where many foundries are maintaing the same BEOL for 14/16nm that they have at 20nm

rick merritt
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
rick merritt   2/27/2014 7:42:16 PM
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@ScottenJ: I'd love to do an interview on your assessment of the aternatives when you have the numbers together!

ScottenJ
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
ScottenJ   2/27/2014 9:06:37 PM
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Rick, that sounds good. I am probably a couple of months away from a full result set.

double-o-nothing
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
double-o-nothing   2/28/2014 9:46:51 AM
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Gridded arrays are being adopted by logic greatly simplifying the difficulty of printing patterns.

Yes indeed this would make things much simpler, we may not need more than two passes through 193i litho even for quadruple patterning at 7 nm.

resistion
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
resistion   2/27/2014 1:23:09 PM
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It also depends how you define "7 nm". Although it is supposed to be ~14 nm half-pitch by projection from previous nodes, I can't imagine gates accomodating this, for example. Lg hasn't been scaling that fast recently. It seems more likely to be stuck at say, around 20 nm half-pitch (which requires only double patterning), but there could be more layers patterned this way than previous nodes.

resistion
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
resistion   2/26/2014 9:54:19 PM
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It is interesting to compare the history of DUV and EUV.

DUV resolution was improved first by increasing NA (even to >0.85, before immersion possible), then reducing wavelength (248 nm to 193 nm).

So the EUV community should be focusing on increasing NA and the next EUV wavelength (BEUV or 6.7 nm).

I don't what is the current status at SPIE, but if there is still reluctance or lack of consensus to go to higher NA or BEUV, that's already a sign. Even going to NA>0.4 requires re-consideration of the EUV multilayer design which affects the lithography demagnification and the mask infrastructure.

Then the irony will be that the EUV community could begin to support double patterning, triple patterning, etc. at 13.5 nm. Which defeats the current justification to going to EUV. We might be hearing about this next year, in preparation for 7 nm node.

zewde yeraswork
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Re: Do you still believe in EUV?
zewde yeraswork   2/27/2014 1:04:56 PM
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That would be quite the irony for EUV to support double patenting. Thanks for the background in distinguishing EUV from DOV, it's pretty helpful insight.

rick merritt
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7nm without EUV
rick merritt   2/26/2014 10:49:18 AM
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That was the title of a panel at the SPIE Litho conference in San Jose last nite: "7nm without EUV"

If anyone went, I'd love to hear a digest of what was said. In any case, what do you think are the viable options?

wilber_xbox
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Re: 7nm without EUV
wilber_xbox   2/26/2014 1:04:27 PM
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Rick, the only viable option right now is multi-patterning solution. Ofcourse the cost will be very high and the challenges immense but some top level executive would want to make it a marketing sucess.

HankWalker
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193i + E-beam?
HankWalker   2/26/2014 12:59:55 PM
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What about 193i (or nanoimprint as used in disk drives) to form parallel lines and e-beam to cut them and form vias? TSMC has a Mapper prototype system. David Lam is targeting Multibeam for this purpose, rather than rastering a mask, since it has much relaxed overlay/resolution/writing speed requirements compared to rastering the whole wafer.

157 died since it was a lot of investment for relatively little gain in process capability. EUV may start to be in that position, unless it can demonstrate significant capability improvement or cost reduction at the time it would be inserted.

 

rick merritt
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Re: 193i + E-beam?
rick merritt   2/26/2014 11:04:01 PM
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@Hank: Yes, I interviewed David Lam last year about his e-beam effort at Multibeam.

See: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1318828

 

Diogenes53
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EUV Revivial?
Diogenes53   2/28/2014 1:09:04 PM
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http://semiengineering.com/euv-suffers-new-setback/

 

Not sure EETimes attended the same papers I attended.  I heard both papers, and spoke with several colleaggue.  The consensus was universal: all believed in the Semiconductor Engineering version (link above).  The papers were anything but a revival.

resistion
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a disaster with misalignment of the 200kW laser that damaged some other components
resistion   2/28/2014 10:27:55 PM
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Sounds like the CO2 laser missed the tin plasma and struck the collector mirror on the other side. That's quite crippling. Wonder if they'll replace the source, even if the tool is running again.

resistion
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EUV Shot Noise Tutorial from Samsung
resistion   2/28/2014 10:38:46 PM
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resistion
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