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NIST Backs Quantum-level Temperature Measurement

7/3/2017 01:31 PM EDT
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Kevin Neilson
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Re: Definition of temperature
Kevin Neilson   7/8/2017 5:00:57 PM
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Thanks for the explanation.

Max The Magnificent
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Re: Kilograms of Standards
Max The Magnificent   7/7/2017 8:45:32 AM
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@bwalker970: "...Not for long..."

I'm surprised it's taken this long -- but since the original is losing weight (by incredibly small amounts, but still), changing to a non-physical (you know what I mean) standard can't come soon enough.

bwalker970
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Re: Kilograms of Standards
bwalker970   7/6/2017 7:29:01 PM
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@Max The MagnificentThat's right -- isn't the killogram the only remaining unit that's defined using a physical object (a weight stored in Paris somewhere)?

Not for long...

https://www.nist.gov/physical-measurement-laboratory/silicon-spheres-and-international-avogadro-project

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMByI4s-D-Y

Max The Magnificent
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Re: Degrading the usefulness of the Hutzler 571
Max The Magnificent   7/6/2017 8:16:47 AM
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@David: "...One would hope that they designed it with the same temperature coefficient of expansion as the banana..."

As you say, we can but hope -- the important thing to remember here, of course, is that the banana is unique amongst fruits (or herbs, depending on your point of view), in that it has a negative coefficient of thermal expansion -- this means that, as the ambient temperature goes up, the length of the banana shrinks.

This effect is only exacerbated when a high-temperature banana is travelling at near-light speed and experiences Lorentz–FitzGerald contraction. The combination of the two contraction effects makes the banana extremely hard to eat, especially if the observer (diner) is travelling in the opposite direction.

 

David Ashton
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Re: Degrading the usefulness of the Hutzler 571
David Ashton   7/5/2017 8:04:21 PM
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@Max...this depends on how well Hutzler have designed their 571.   One would hope that they designed it with the same temperature coefficient of expansion as the banana.  Otherwise you might get less than your 18 slices, or worse still, your banana might not fit into the Hutzler.  I'd suggest you contact NIST and ask them to lay down some standards in this respect, before the situation gets totally out of hand.

MeasurementBlues
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Re: Thanks for the link to the NIST paper
MeasurementBlues   7/5/2017 5:34:24 PM
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From the NIST article on measuring the kiogram:

NIST's Kibble balance uses electromagnetic forces to balance a kilogram mass.

Thus, it becomes an electromagnetic measurement. EEs do everything.

MeasurementBlues
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Thermocouple physics
MeasurementBlues   7/5/2017 5:30:32 PM
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Most people describe thermocouple physics incorrectly. Even the great analog engineer Jim Williams got it wrong.

 

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traneus
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Definition of temperature
traneus   7/5/2017 5:09:25 PM
Kevil Neilson wrote: "I've tried to figure out the actual definition of temperature and why it can't be expressed in terms of other SI units.  When you try to look this up, the answers all seem elusive.  The only thing I can find is that it's close to but not exactly "translational kinetic energy per particle", which makes me wonder why it can't be defined in terms of J/particle or something similar."

The NIST thermometer directly implements a definition of temperature in terms of other SI units. The reason answers to Kevil's question are elusive is historical in that, until recently, we could not do the direct measurement. Now NIST can, albeit slowly.

The Johnson/Nyquist thermal noise of a resistor is given by: Vn^2 = 4 Kb T R B. Kb is Boltzmann's constant which SI wants to fix by definition. T is the temperature in Kelvins which is what the NIST thermometer measures, and T = Vn^2 / (4 Kb R B). R is the resistance in ohms, which can be measured based on the definitions of the volt and the ampere. B is the bandwidth of the circuit measuring the noise power, and can be measured based on the definition of the second. Vn is the RMS noise voltage from the resistor. NIST measures Vn by comparing Vn to a pseudorandom noise voltage generated by a deltasigma DAC build around the SI voltage standard.

Once SI defines Boltzmann's constant Kb, NIST's thermometer will define the Kelvin temperature scale in terms of defined fundamental constants and a single unit of size, the second.

Johnson was the experimentalist and Nyquist was the theorist, and they had back-to-back journal papers on thermal noise, in Proceedings of the IRE in 1928 if I recall correctly.

SI's goal is to have a single standard of size, the second, and to define all other units in terms of the second and defined values of fundamental constants.

 

requiem
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Re: The System is SI, not the unit
requiem   7/5/2017 4:26:44 PM
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Yes, please re-edit; "a temperature measurement unit called the SI" and similar references throughout the article are embarrassingly incorrect.  Additionally, 273.15 K and 32 °F are not equal to 0.01 °C, they instead refer to the freezing point and are slightly below the triple point.

Kevin Neilson
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Re: Thanks for the link to the NIST paper
Kevin Neilson   7/5/2017 3:05:33 PM
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I've tried to figure out the actual definition of temperature and why it can't be expressed in terms of other SI units.  When you try to look this up, the answers all seem elusive.  The only thing I can find is that it's close to but not exactly "translational kinetic energy per particle", which makes me wonder why it can't be defined in terms of J/particle or something similar.

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