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GREAT-Terry
I like objective measurement. Usually when an amplifier passes objective ...
kdboyce
One of the biggest problems in audio is this "subjective - objective" aspect. ...
Audio subjectivist vs. objectivist debate
Rich Pell
5/25/2011 12:35 PM EDT
The never-ending audio subjectivist vs. objectivist debate has flared up again recently, this time apparently triggered by a critical measurement-based review of a popular DIY/audiophile headphone amplifier. The subsequent brouhaha saw the reviewer/engineer ultimately being banned from the amplifier designer's forum, but not before much effort by some on the forum questioning his "credentials" - rather than his measurements.
Ironically, unlike on most DIY sites, the designer of the reviewed product actually publishes tested specs for the designs on his site. In this case, however, it didn't help that the tested product apparently didn't even perform up to some of its published specifications.
Now it's understandable that the designer and builders of this product might become defensive in such a situation - especially when, as the reviewer himself admits, his criticism could have been presented more diplomatically. But, in the end, in a real engineering/design forum, the engineering points he raised would have been the main issue and focus of attention.
Instead, the reviewer's credibility was questioned. And it was even implied at one point that contributors to the DIY community - such as the designer(s) of the headphone amplifier - shouldn't be criticized, even if they publish erroneous/misleading specifications.
The reaction to all of this has even prompted the original engineer/reviewer to weigh in on the subjective vs. objective debate. And the comments to his post have been encouraging, indicating a desire at least among some in the DIY/audiophile community for more objective audio product reviews.
As a longtime audio DIYer I can sympathize with audio enthusiasts who don't wish to have their fun spoiled by the likes of such objectivist methods as hardcore engineering measurements and double blind testing (DBT). But audio subjectivists should realize that ignoring the objectivist "reality" side of audio means never being able to determine an objective "better" or "best" and forever drifting from one product to another in search of the "holy grail."
Me, I'd rather spend my time enjoying listening to music.
Comments, questions or suggestions? Email me at rich.pell@verizon.net.
Related links:
Putting an audiophile "tweak" to the test
The six basic audio tests in video tutorials
Audio cable break-in, analog vs. digital nonsense
Audio Myths Workshop video
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bcarso
5/26/2011 3:10 PM EDT
I read the NwAvGuy review and early on saw an inset that said "You have been permanently banned from this forum", and my first reaction was "How can that be? I've not yet ever read, or posted on, your forum!!" :) I was thinking, "How did they find me already and know that I might be bad news?" But of course the inset turned out just to be a reproduction from NwAvGuy's screen. Whew!
When I do criticize I bend over backwards to find something nice to say, if at all possible. So that might have saved me in this case. But aside from the arguments that there must have been something wrong with the DUT, the simple and straighforward citing of the characteristics of the unit (like available voltage swings and maximum currents in the "active ground" generator chip) make things look pretty bad for the defense already. And although crosstalk is, per se, an absurdly overrated parameter (the threshold for 100% subjective localization for pure tones from two sources without any time delay manipulations is about 13dB!), the IM distortion associated with interfering channels shown is quite obnoxious and sadly also quite plausible.
Of course they could have taken the attitude of "just listen" and not provided any specifications to begin with. When technical prowess is weak this is always a fallback. Now I'm sure to be banned!
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David Ashton
6/2/2011 7:28 AM EDT
"Me, I'd rather spend my time enjoying listening to music." Amen to that Rich. I sometimes think that some of these guys are getting something like the placebo effect. If they think it is better it will sound better to them.
Maybe it affects me too - I KNOW that CDs technically reproduce music better than vinyl, so to me they sound better...?? And at the end of the Cat Stevens track "Angelsea" there is a step descending note which I know I could only hear on better equipment when I was a kid, on a CD it can be heard quite clearly.
Certainly if you publish specs or statements and they're found to be false, you gotta eat humble pie.... not try and BS your way out of it...
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kdboyce
6/3/2011 1:32 AM EDT
One of the biggest problems in audio is this "subjective - objective" aspect. Having been involved in marketing of audio IC's for some time, I can tell you that the objective measurements are defensible, and easier to market and sell. Unfortunately, those measurements usually don't get the hype compared to what someone says about the subjective results. And since everyone hears sound in a slightly different way, the subjective is easy to say and hard to prove in any convincing way.
And so arises the mythos associated with the audio community that allows every aspect of it to be subjected (no pun intended) to outrageous claims that can affect performance and the listening experience.
Until I experienced very accurate measurements on some audio equipment, I dismissed the so-called "golden ears" in the audio field. Some of them can actually hear things most of us don't, and would not know about unless they were measured.
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GREAT-Terry
6/16/2011 10:49 AM EDT
I like objective measurement. Usually when an amplifier passes objective measurement like frequency response, THD, SNR etc., it won't be a bad piece of equipment and I respect people that try all their best to push the limit of all these specifications, even though I sometimes suspect if they are really audible
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