Engineering Lifestyle
Are you my third cousin twice removed?
Clive Maxfield
3/18/2013 9:20 AM EDT
Have you ever heard the terms "second cousin" and "third cousin" and wondered what they meant? I remember as a young lad listening to my mother and my auntie Barbara happily waffling on about convoluted family relationships involving branches of our "tribe" who had emigrated to Canada and Australia.
They would say things like "Well, Ethel's daughter's son would be Cuthbert's son's daughter's third cousin twice removed." They could talk like this for hours. I really had no interest in any of this, because I didn’t even have a clue who Ethel or Cuthbert were, let alone their offspring's offspring.
I must admit, however, that the topic of second and third cousins being twice or thrice removed did stick in my brain for some reason. Occasionally it's floated up to the surface leaving me wondering "What does this really mean?"
Well, I just found out. I'm visiting my dear old mom in England this week (she's sitting in a rocking chair next to me as I work in my brother's dining room). My mom's newspaper – the Daily Express – offers a treasure trove of trivia. Every day people write in with questions and there is a two-page center-spread of these questions and their answers provided by the paper's researchers. I just saw one such question and answer combo, which read as follows:
The paper then went on to explain the relationships between the person who posed the question and her long-lost cousin's daughter etc. Can you work out what those relationships are?
And, while you are ruminating over this, you might want to take a look at that classic video accompanying the song I'm my own grandpa:
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this one. What do you think? Are the relationships described in this video conceivably possible?
If you found this article to be of interest, visit Programmable Logic Designline where – in addition to my Max's Cool Beans blogs – you will find the latest and greatest design, technology, product, and news articles with regard to programmable logic devices of every flavor and size (FPGAs, CPLDs, CSSPs, PSoCs...).
Also, you can obtain a highlights update delivered directly to your inbox by signing up for my weekly newsletter – just Click Here to request this newsletter using the Manage Newsletters tab (if you aren't already a member you'll be asked to register, but it's free and painless so don't let that stop you [grin]).
They would say things like "Well, Ethel's daughter's son would be Cuthbert's son's daughter's third cousin twice removed." They could talk like this for hours. I really had no interest in any of this, because I didn’t even have a clue who Ethel or Cuthbert were, let alone their offspring's offspring.
I must admit, however, that the topic of second and third cousins being twice or thrice removed did stick in my brain for some reason. Occasionally it's floated up to the surface leaving me wondering "What does this really mean?"
Well, I just found out. I'm visiting my dear old mom in England this week (she's sitting in a rocking chair next to me as I work in my brother's dining room). My mom's newspaper – the Daily Express – offers a treasure trove of trivia. Every day people write in with questions and there is a two-page center-spread of these questions and their answers provided by the paper's researchers. I just saw one such question and answer combo, which read as follows:
Q: I have just met a long-lost cousin's daughter who visited me with her three sons. My own son came along with his two children and my daughter with her son. My question is what type of cousins are we all. My oldest grandson asked me to find out for a school project.
A: If you share a grandparent with someone they are your first cousin (so the children of your uncles or aunts are your first cousins). If you share a great-grandparent with someone they are your second cousin. If you share great-great-grandparents you are third cousins, and so on. A child of your first cousin is your first cousin once removed. A grandchild of your first cousin is your first cousin twice removed, etc.
The paper then went on to explain the relationships between the person who posed the question and her long-lost cousin's daughter etc. Can you work out what those relationships are?
And, while you are ruminating over this, you might want to take a look at that classic video accompanying the song I'm my own grandpa:
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this one. What do you think? Are the relationships described in this video conceivably possible?
If you found this article to be of interest, visit Programmable Logic Designline where – in addition to my Max's Cool Beans blogs – you will find the latest and greatest design, technology, product, and news articles with regard to programmable logic devices of every flavor and size (FPGAs, CPLDs, CSSPs, PSoCs...).
Also, you can obtain a highlights update delivered directly to your inbox by signing up for my weekly newsletter – just Click Here to request this newsletter using the Manage Newsletters tab (if you aren't already a member you'll be asked to register, but it's free and painless so don't let that stop you [grin]).
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Duane Benson
3/18/2013 11:19 AM EDT
The long-lost cousin's daughter would be a first cousin once removed and her kids would be a first cousin twice removed.
This is actually pretty timely as I've been looking up some long-not-seen cousin and have been contemplating the same question. Without the simple grandparent rule, I had to wonder what the order of operations would be.
Since my kids are first cousins once removed from my first cousin, whose kids are my first cousin's cousins once removed, are they first cousins twice removed [cousin(removed + removed)] or second cousins once removed [(cousin + cousin)removed] or second cousins twice removed (cousin + cousin)(removed + removed)
The grandparent rule makes it all a lot easier.
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ChrisJ555
3/18/2013 12:06 PM EDT
So the answer didn't say explicitly, but I assume that the "x times removed" is commutative? In other words, I am the first cousin once removed of my mom's cousin....so she is my first cousin once removed also, right?
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Max the Magnificent
3/19/2013 4:44 AM EDT
Hmmm -- it would seem that it must be commutative -- but that can make it a bit "lop-sided".
So if you are the first cousin to some one, and they have a kid and that kid has a kid, then the kid's kid is your first cousin twice removed. But similarly, you are that kid's kid's first cousin twice removed.
My head hurts...
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Barton.Meeks
3/19/2013 11:32 AM EDT
The Xth cousin part is how many generations you have to go back to find a common ancestor. The Yth removed part is how many "levels" you are off. Example: Chip is my 1st cousin once removed. His mother and I are first cousins, we have a common grandparent. Chip and I are "once removed" because it is two levels back to the common ancestor for me, but three levels back for him. Look up cousin on wikipedia -- they have pictures!
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Barton.Meeks
3/19/2013 11:48 AM EDT
Correction for Xth cousin: number of generations back minus one. For 2nd cousins, you go back 3 generations to find the common ancestor, a great-grandparent.
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adkozin
3/19/2013 11:54 AM EDT
Try reading Heinlien's "All You Zombies"
Makes Ray Stevens simple by comparason.
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Steam Kid
3/19/2013 11:59 AM EDT
Not as difficult as you are making it sound. If you have a common ancestor Z with children X & Y producing a generational column of ancestors then the children of X & Y are cousins. I imagine no-one has problems understanding this.
To illustrate it graphically, imagine a three column strip with the first column labelled as n, second column as X ancestral line & the third column as Y ancestral line.
Thus label Z as n=-1, X & Y as n=0, then the (first)cousins are n=+1. For each generation down n increments and you have the n th cousin of X & Y.
When you stop going down the X column but continue down the Y column r times then you have the n th cousin r times removed.
When they talk about each other X would say "Y is my n th cousin r times removed".
Y would say "I am n th cousin r times removed to X". thus no ambiguity.
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Max the Magnificent
3/20/2013 4:06 AM EDT
You make is sound so simple, especially if you say it quickly :-)
But seriously, I do like your suggestion:
When they talk about each other X would say "Y is my n th cousin r times removed".
Y would say "I am n th cousin r times removed to X".
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Duane Benson
4/18/2013 6:25 PM EDT
It would be cool to be a mathematician so you could name your kids X, Y and Z.
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seaEE
4/18/2013 11:49 PM EDT
Great idea, and if one were a set of twins, the second could be x-squared. Triplets? x-cubed... "That is X**3, and over there is X**2, and that one is X. They are my power series!"
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Max the Magnificent
5/10/2013 10:54 AM EDT
Groan :-)
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rpell2
3/20/2013 9:29 AM EDT
Wikipedia has a cousin relationship chart that I've found useful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin#Cousin_chart
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Max the Magnificent
5/10/2013 10:55 AM EDT
I have to say that I LOVE the Wikipedia
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alunh_1
3/22/2013 8:43 AM EDT
If you want a complete and detailed explaination try:
http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/
My father-inlaw is something of an expert in these things.
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Max the Magnificent
5/10/2013 10:55 AM EDT
## My father-inlaw is something of an expert in these things
Remind me NOT to get into a conversation with him at a party :-)
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amacon
3/22/2013 2:08 PM EDT
Years ago, I wrote a program that my family reunion use a computer to identify their relationship to other people at a reunion. One of the things I realized that made this program much simpler was that one's siblings were one's 0th cousins.
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Max the Magnificent
5/10/2013 10:56 AM EDT
I wonder if there's an app for that on the iPad?
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JeffM
3/22/2013 5:51 PM EDT
One of my daughters married her fourth cousin. So, her children are not only her children, but her fourth cousins, once removed. My son-in-law's father is my third cousin, so these three (soon to be four) grandchildren through my daughter are also my third cousins twice removed through my son-in-law. I find that kind of fun!
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Max the Magnificent
3/25/2013 4:19 PM EDT
Now my head really hurts :-)
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anrang
4/5/2013 11:01 PM EDT
If you want a complete and detailed explaination try:http://blisswedding.com.hk/facebook.php
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Max the Magnificent
5/10/2013 10:56 AM EDT
Cool Beans -- thanks for sharing
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