Worried about India? Don’t be

4/5/2011 4:55 PM EDT

Wake up people we have lost most of our high tech jobs to other countries. These jobs will move to where products are manufactured. Connecticut has lost most of its high tech jobs and is replacing them with restaurant help, medical and low paid service jobs.

4/5/2011 5:15 PM EDT

You may look it from Pareto Principle of 80-20 rule. 80% may not be effective enginners. But remaining 20%, may be as effective as engineers from other part of the world.

4/5/2011 5:17 PM EDT

Bronx is right on the money. We all know that is is a fundamental shift taking place and that engineering standards are being lowered to the lowest common denominator -- the "offshore engineer". Innovation is suffering because the smarter engineers are being forced out and what's left is more pod people. Engineers replicated in developing countries to fill bodies for outsourcing companies (who frankly know that most of the engineers suck -- but they want to keep their costs low and make money from the greedy multinationals). This game will continue until the economy is wrecked.

4/5/2011 6:52 PM EDT

I think the verdict is still out...yes, many jobs moved there already...but initial experience is not that great, as the article says work done in India can be very inefficient...I know from some of my friends that it took 3x as long to design a complex IC and after five revs it still didn't work...but I am not sure these design jobs will come back, engineers in India will eventually learned to be efficient although they will be paid more so some soft of equilibrium will be established...Kris

4/6/2011 12:29 AM EDT

The quality will improve, gradually. Its not that the system will be stuck at where it is now for ever. Naysayers said similar things about Electronic products from Japan in 80's and Korea in 90's, which was probably right in those times. Now look whats the situation.

"Innovation is suffering because the smarter engineers are being forced out"
I cant see this happened in the case of Korea and Japan! Infact these countries IMO are more innovative than US.

Outsourcing will continue forever, and its high time some people wake up to the idea!

4/6/2011 12:31 AM EDT

I agree with Kris/iniewski. I worked on IC design/implementation projects. Even though Indian architects/engineers were writing microarchitecture specifications in English per se in Chennai, India...we dubbed it Chennai English because it was up to us to formally "translate" what they meant and double-check if technically our teams were all on the same page. Instead of getting upset about offshoring, I think we should look domestically. We need to, on a grassroots level, support our local community's education issues. Where I am, we are laying off teachers and in my state, we have trouble funding public education. Education, training, and experience are all in the hands of individuals, their families, and their communities. Let's look inwards first to make sure our American communities are helping to meet the demands of highly skilled advanced high tech professions. We can partner with countries like India since it looks like everyone is struggling to train and qualify their own citizens. I think global partnerships and a higher standard in general of both education and hiring practices will help ensure a brighter future.

4/6/2011 12:34 AM EDT

Most chip development in India goes over there to die. Good engineers from all over the world still want to come work in the U.S.

4/6/2011 1:48 AM EDT

check out the statistics the India Design industry is growing at 15% y-o-y and it will be like this in years to come. There are captive design center of leading semiconductor companies who are doing excellent quality work in SoC design. These designs are completed with world class cycle time and quality.

4/6/2011 7:01 AM EDT

Jobs will continue to move to India ... you'll also see quality startups (Check out Ittiam, NotionInk, Lucivid, Corpus Media, Elloka ...) producing products from India, for burgeoning Indian markets and the rest of the world ... the momentum has shifted!

4/7/2011 2:55 AM EDT

Rather than remaining happy that Indian Engineers are not up to the mark and hence there is no fear from them to Americans, it is time that the American Engineers do their own soul searching as to why in spite of such a low percentage of qualified Engineers from India, the American managers are still looking to outsource their jobs to Indians. That is because , the additional effort of training these half cooked engineers , correcting their Indian-English documentation, is still worth the money saved.

4/7/2011 9:49 AM EDT

just look why is one US engineer more expensive than one Indian, compare the cost of living also, and look how did the cost of living "went up" in the US, despite or just because of subsidized agriculture -- somebody made lots of money. Yes globalization is happening, but the equalization of the cost of living not, additionally one US worker has to carry the costs of the US politic to....

4/7/2011 11:03 AM EDT

I've interviewed many engineers:
I've found that a person with a so-called "Engineering degree" from India, is the same as going to a 2 year technical college in the states, at best.

They don't seem to understand the engineering basics, like when and how to use a capacitor. Or how to implement for real world applications.
They rarely pass the technical part of the interview unless they already have 5+ years of real work experience.

However.... I do expect this to change quickly because more, and more people are getting the necessary real-world experience they need.

4/7/2011 11:35 AM EDT

I am sorry, cause I know it is not politically correct, but the instances where I have had to explain a basic engineering or physics principle (like the ideal gas laws) to a customer engineer occur with a higher frequency when I am in Asia (Japan is an exception). A friend of mine who is an engineer in another industry has seen most of his customers who went to cheaper Chinese competitors come back. They were good at producing decent first articles with a low price quote, but as soon as the first production lots came in, the yield was extremely bad. That cheaper price was not so cheap in the end. In my industry, we no longer have any significant competitors based in Asia (one in Europe). I think this is because it is driven by technology R&D.

4/7/2011 12:05 PM EDT

Does anyone has any data on Indian vs US engineering salaries now?Kris

4/7/2011 12:14 PM EDT

11 major changes in next ten years you will see in India: 1. Better legal system and less corruption 2. Smaller states 3. More drug addicts, more people covered under medical insurance 4. Legalization of prostitution and gambling 5. Corporate agriculture 6. Indian brands in food and beverages – global market to these 7. Very low cost labor due to 4G/or/nextG role in IT and ITES, and BPOs 8. Tons of Product based start ups 9. Nuclear power 10. Better utilization of coastal regions and minerals 11. Science driven Education I guess outsourcing will continue to India at more rapid pace than previous decade –will continue to see short of talent/skill set with in India and everywhere else!! Rams.sa3

4/7/2011 4:47 PM EDT

I don't know where the author received his information. Just look at Xilinx website - 90% of their technical job openings are in India.
So, don't be worried about India, be worried about your job !

4/8/2011 1:39 AM EDT

Yes, maybe jobs are out there, but for innovation you have to look at the West. The work environment does not motivate individuals to be innovative. That is why with all the population over there, there are few noble laureates, few companies that match the kinds of products put out by apple, facebook, google etc...

4/8/2011 1:39 AM EDT

coding != innovation

4/8/2011 10:18 AM EDT

I think the problem is with the education system present here. The practical application of any concept is not stressed upon in the whole duration of the course. So everyone knows the concept, none of them have ever tried making anything on their own. They just are satisfied with doing a few which are made mandatory by their university.

Also the best of the lot often tend to opt for the software sector which give them better salary in the initial years of their career.

I have observed that there are a number of activities that institutions here have started over the past year or two to attract students with good academics to the semiconductor industry.

4/8/2011 2:16 PM EDT

The above-quoted WSJ article seems to place too much emphasis on feedback from call centers and not high-tech engineering firms. Engineering curriculum in most of the educational institutes in India is extremely biased towards theory, hence the lack of flash-start job skills in most of the fresh graduates. I would really be interested in seeing a comparison of how they fare after 4-5 years of work experience, though.

4/8/2011 3:44 PM EDT

So basically, Indian engineering professors cannot teach engineering either. This means US students are on equal footing and may stand a chance.

4/8/2011 4:17 PM EDT

I am an indian engineer and having worked in chip design industry for a long time have few things to say:
painfully i agree that american engineers (that i have across) have been definitely outstanding.
There is genuine interest in engineering on their part. But Indians learn very quickly and good ones really become good as they gain experience and interact in the community.

I do find, that lack of interaction between industry and indian education systems does leavue us in the academic environment longer than i would like to see...

Then dont forget the impact indain engineers/ entrepreuners have had in the silicon valley. With right training, and right environment the talent exists to be superior. Will take time but will happen...

4/9/2011 12:09 PM EDT

To all the folks here. I have run and built teams from the ground up in both India and the US. The difference is:

1) In the US a lot of students become engineers because they like engineering. There are many opportunities other than engineering to make money. In countries like India, becoming a doctor or and engineer is your ticket out of poverty and a life of mediocrity. So a lot of students who do not have the aptitude get into these fields. Hence the lack of innovation. India still has not learned the rule: Quantity != Quality.


As far as IITs go, the brand is being diluted. India lacks good engineering colleges and faculty. Most of the IITs and top schools in India have US educated PhDs as professors or who were professors in US returning and teaching there.

3) Our recruiting average was: out of every 2000 resumes we viewed we ended up hiring about 1 person. So being better educated about where to recruit people from in India also helps.

In case of outsourcing, as long as the cost differentials are there, the trend will continue. Nowadays American companies are also driven by a short term profit motive without much investment in R&D. There is also a dumbing down of the population with less and less graduates in engineering and science being produced, with people doubting basic scientific fact.

One point to ponder there were over 32,827 science and engineering PhDs awarded in the US in 2008 (NSF data). I want to ask, does the level of innovation match this data ? Historically we award close to 20,000 PhDs every year in science and engineering.

Last but not least, Intelligence is not monopolized by anybody, there are smart people everywhere. With time, as the middle class grows in countries like India, they will produce a lot of good engineers and innovation.

4/10/2011 3:08 AM EDT

Outsourcing to India from the U.S. has been going on for 30 years. It's time to start learning Hindi, once I finish my Chinese and Japanese lessons. Thanks for letting me know I don't have to worry anymore.

4/11/2011 1:47 PM EDT

From the corporate point of view: It doesn't matter whether the engineers from India are good or bad, as long as they are paid low enough to reflect a (perceived) savings to the bottom line. As long as profits are demanded by shareholders, outsourcing overseas will continue. That's just the way the capitalist system operates and there's no getting around it.

Should we worry about India? Not really. What we need to worry about first and foremost is the ethics and morals of the companies we work for. Unless we can change their thinking, it's only a matter of time before all of us are outsourced in the name of profit.

4/11/2011 2:14 PM EDT

I m pretty sure you(I mean the innovative west) would have basked in glory of the advancements in other industries 15 years back. Lot of you would have doubted the capabilities of east to manufacture quality goods but its for all to see how China has taken over the world. Well you may have to wait for 10 years to actually see which way semiconductor industry moves. One thing is for sure market for embedded products is in east, for those who are not well read I would advice to get hold of the marketing data. Till then please keep innovating and generating jobs in India , win-win in short term ...

4/11/2011 11:29 PM EDT

I work with and mentor Indian engineers everyday. As engineers, they run full gamut of under-productive to very productive, just like us. On the whole they have different work inclination: (1) Their idea of being done is not as done as US engineers; (2) They are not used to working to hard deadlines; (3) They take a sie la vie attitude toward finishing on time; (3) They don't like extreme pressure, and will throw there hands up in the air when pressured too much. BUT, as they grow more experienced that will change and they will become (innocense lost) more like us (for bad or good).

4/12/2011 2:35 AM EDT

Big MNCs working in Chip design and EDA are very well aware of the facts mentioned here . As a result , in spite of having large Indian design teams ,they keep Architecture ,Program Management and major decision taking in US.Only if they feel very confident of the Indian Manager ( typically a person who has spent 10+ years in their US design centre) ,then only these things are handled in India . This is a win win situation for everybody as 90% of work involved in any chip design project is execution and only 10% is innovation.Also , software engineers constitute about 70% of headcount in any Chip design project and typically Indians have better acumen there .

4/12/2011 11:56 AM EDT

In India we have a large number of institutions.The coordination between them is not sufficient.A good team of experts are required in reframing the whole syllabus which will meet today's indusrty requirements. There are suggestions to tune the syllabus by narrowing down the areas and peaking them will result in high qualification in the particular area. This results in narrowing of the job opportunities. But still there are better ways to improve the standards of curriculam. It is possible. Every institution needs to think of the same and implement the improved methods of teaching the basics. The foundations needs to be strengthened.

4/13/2011 11:48 AM EDT

NOBODY turns out qualified engineers. They are nurtured and grown on the job. Schools can at best lay the foundation for future learning.

4/13/2011 5:13 PM EDT

Long overdue response to Kris question about comparing Indian EE salaries to U.S. EE Salaries: The salary and opinion survey we collected last year has the Indian EE mean base salary at 1.1 million rupees or roughly $25,000. Mean total compension (bonuses and overtime) came in at slightly more than $27,000 USD.

(An Indian colleague of mine here at EE Times who started working for an EDA company as an engineer in India 10 years ago said it was the happiest day in his life when he got that job and a salary that was roughly that level).

4/14/2011 2:23 AM EDT

Major difference comes for engineers with 3-5 years experience who constitute about 60% of the total head count .For this bunch of engineers total annual compenstaion in India ranges from USD15K to USD25K . This is equivalent from purchasing power perspective about USD30K to USD50K in California. For engineers with 12-15 years experience , compensation in India ranges from USD40K to USD60K which is equivalent to USD100K to USD150K in California.Generally , these very senior engineers are returnee from US and need that high salary to maintain similar lifestyle.

5/11/2011 9:04 AM EDT

Quite seriously I think we need to step away from an entirely market driven system. Parts of it must be market driven, but a lot of it has to be guided from a central management centre that is concerned about total final outcomes rather than some short sighted selfish profit motive. The only reason why America is in the mess it is now is because it thinks that totalitarian free market is the answer to all it's problems. Totalitarian capitalism is as bad or even worse than totalitarian socialism or any of the other totalitarianisms. They plod along for while and then collapse in their own excrement. You need boundaries and ground rules to guide things, not a free-for-all.

5/11/2011 11:58 AM EDT

The USA is cranking out unqualified engineers too. I have interviewed hundreds of engineers and graduates from the crappy tech schools like ITT, Heald, DeVry, etc. are consistently awful. Yet, they are convinced their BSEE's are the same as those from regular, accredited universities. I’ve repeatedly asked HR to filter those applicants, but there are so few grads from universities out there, we often have no choice. Every now-and-then I find a gem out of the tech school grads, but it seems they were very sharp going into the program and had a genuine, life-long interest in engineering.

There’s another aspect to Indian engineers’ mediocre performance many don’t know about: An Indian Bachelor’s Degree means they graduated high school. In the US, high school is high school and college is college, but in many Indian areas, grade 9-12 is called “college” and graduating “college” means they have a BS degree. My wife is East Indian and readily admits this and simply says US college is just harder that Indian college. I’ve confirmed this with Indian coworkers too. It sure makes for an uneven playing field in the US when my Indian engineer counterparts’ college degrees can’t be verified. My degree of course can be easily verified with a single call. I wish more US employers were aware of this.

5/11/2011 12:32 PM EDT

Do you think the bean counters care or understand what your knowledge and experience are worth? I don't. I worked for a biomed company for 6 years and was let go for someone cheaper. I had got a board up and running in a couple of weeks and my cheaper replacement couldn't get a second going in 6 months. He did have a prettier CV with names like HP on it, but there might have been a reason for that?