Engineering and the American Dream

11/29/2011 2:23 PM EST

You're right with this Dylan. It really has to be put into context. We Americans tend to have very short-term memory.

One of the big differences between 1982 and now is that back then, mortgage rates were exceeding 15%. Say goodby to purchasing a home at those rates. We also still had a fairly hot cold war going on with the Soviets with well in excess of 50,000 nuclear warheads; maybe ten thousand of which were always 30 minutes from someplace to blow up. Our auto industry was in shambles. That may be also true now, but 1982 was still a time when the phrase "What's good for GM is good for the country" was thought to be true.

Everyone was depressed and saying that for the first time the new generation would be poorer than the prior one. The American economy was supposed to be dead. Many of us thought that rather than fighting for jobs, we'd be fighting for scraps of food in a radioactive wasteland.

Certainly our economy is messed up, our employment horizon looks very bleak and the world seems to be pretty deep into heck in hand basket. Still, I'd take this decade over the 80's any time.

11/29/2011 3:00 PM EST

Those who complain about having "lower living standard" than their parents are forgetting the technological advances that have been made since their parents time. Computing and communication improvements are obvious, but even things like cars have improved immensely. In 1990, you could get a brand new Honda Civic for $8000 USD. In 2011 dollars, that's about $14000, roughly the same price as a new Hyundai Accent. But if you compare the comfort, safety, performance of the 2011 Accent to that 1990 Civic, you'd think the people of 20 years ago were getting ripped off.

These advancements are only possible because engineers, so it disturbs me to hear that some people would turn their children away from careers in engineering. As the world continues to develop, and more people compete for fixed resources, economic growth is going to depend further on technology. We can't keep building factories, but we can keep making faster computers and better software.

Right now the top hardware and software companies are based in the US, but we need to continue to promote science and engineering, or the center of the technological world will shift elsewhere.

11/29/2011 3:18 PM EST

The 80s were great for engineering. It was the barnstorming age of engineering. There was a whole new world of PCs, software and electronics and lots of venture capital to finance it. There were lots of old fashioned devices that could be improved by adding a microprocessor and some simple code. Now PCs and the internet are all old news. The industry is controlled by big corporate players eking profits out of incremental improvements. The revolution is over.

11/29/2011 3:35 PM EST

When the PC revolution mellowed, along came the Internet revolution. Now we have robotics about to catch fire. It's different now. It's never been easy. It's not easy now. But it's not over. Not by a long shot.

11/29/2011 4:18 PM EST

read this article. after the dotcom era went bust, the finance and operations people promoted themselves in charge and metrics for everything took over. In addition to using microsoft office suite for anything and everything and reducing the entire operation to fixed formula. The result? customers and the basics were lost. how come the USA was an economic powerhouse before financial metrics and microsoft office suite? read this article


http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/11/18/clayton-christensen-how-pursuit-of-profits-kills-innovation-and-the-us-economy/

11/29/2011 4:24 PM EST

The American Dream is still alive. People just have to remember that you have to "WORK" for it. I think too many people expect to just walk in and be a millionaire. It never worked that way. You have to have the inspiration and then do the persperation part to get your rewards. Yes, it is not easy. It never was. It never will be. Only you can determine your success. Waiting for it to happen will not work. Working to make it happen gives you your only chance.

11/29/2011 5:35 PM EST

The first dot-com boom convinced a lot of the countries brightest young minds that all you needed was a dorm room, an idea and six months. Then you'd go IPO, cash out your millions and live the life of leisure from then on. A lot of people decided that sustained hard work and producing real value were just for the old fogies, that we were dinosaurs and just didn't get the "New economy."

There was never a new economy. It's all the same. You have to work hard. You have to be creative. You have to stick to it and not let the dips get you down. The obstacles change all the time but they've always been there to one degree or another.

11/29/2011 7:04 PM EST

I don't take such emotion-filled polls very seriously. Every time the economy is down, the masses become overly dramatic, with predictions that it will never get any better. The same thing happened during the "malaise" Carter years, for those old enough to remember. "Stagflation," so called, would be with us forever. Then in 1981, oil was deregulated. And then everything took off again, in spite of the previous "malaise" and dire predictions.

On the other side of that coin, during the .com bubble, people were being just as illogical, making ridiculous amounts of money on vapor, and thinking that's all it took. I guess they found out differently. So, like then, whatever is the situation today gets extrapolated to become the supposed permanent state of affairs.

What we need now is politicians who quit blaming the previous administration for this state of the economy, and look instead in the mirror. The jobs aren't coming back yet because government policies are holding businesses back. A government that thinks it's more capable than individuals and businesses, to create economic growth. A government that believes a strong economy can be achieved with mere consumer spending, and government spending on the maintenance of infrastructure. These are absurd notions. Just as absurd as the get rich schemes of the vapor-filled .com bubble days.

Not to mention, have you noticed how many politicians these days talk about "the middle class" when they really mean "the working poor?" Government policies that are primarily aimed at increasing the spending ability of "the working poor," important as that might be, are hardly the policies that will spur economic growth.

So, as far as I'm concerned, this downturn will certainly end. This is still the land of opportunity. But we need to fire the politicians who think that THEY embody that opportunity, or that THEY are the ones who can lead people to it. These are ideas best left the dictatorships of the "less fortunate" countries.

11/29/2011 10:08 PM EST

"There are undoubtedly many engineers who are quite happy and prosperous and feel excited about the future prospects for engineering in America."

It's a golden age of prosperity, for sure, comrade.

11/30/2011 1:51 AM EST

Count me among the old fogies who still believes in the American Dream for my kids, who still loves doing electronics design work every day, and who feels fortunate to have had -- and continue to have -- opportunities to do exciting work, make some nice profits for my company, and make a decent salary.

As I have said here before, I have one child studying engineering right now, and as it turns out, another who is now giving it serious consideration. Do they worry about the economy and their career prospects as soon to be young engineering grads in the U.S.? Of course they do. Don't we all do that when the economy is down and companies are tightening their belts? But do we give up on our dreams? Is that the message we give to our children? Not in my house we don't!

Meanwhile, this past Black Friday was the biggest in history. Not bad for the "worst economy since the Great Depression." And for those who are caught up in the media-fueled malaise, for those who think there are no more big opportunities for growth, history is a great reminder. Even in this past decade, which started with a recession, the dot-com bubble bursting, and the worst attack on our country since WW2, there were huge opportunities, especially in electronics and internet-related fields. Even a bright young kid could start a company, drop out of college, start a company and find himself living the life of a multi-billionaire, while still in his 20s.

Opportunity and the American Dream is a state of mind. Those who see the glass as half empty will muddle along, slowly emptying that glass until it is dry. Those who see it as half full will find a way to fill it up, and then another glass, and yet another.

11/30/2011 6:54 AM EST

If this major economic crisis helps us revamp the whole world's financial system, then history will record it as a blessing in disguise. If we miss this opportunity, then we've been had yet again by the world's financiers. So I do not think the dream is over, no. In fact, it can be renewed vigorously if we seize the opportunity: bring back the strong link between hard work/sincerity/ingenuity and reward; strip the financiers of their hold over the economy by abolishing central banks, separating retail banking from investment banking, and abolishing usury... back to basics!

11/30/2011 7:18 AM EST

The dream is dying because we have let the Socialists remake America. We have ruinous taxation to pay for a government that tries to do everything the communists, socialists, and progressives have been wishing for for years. Our educational institutions and our mass media education have made us all into socialists, because we think the solution is for the government to try harder. The dissenting voices are marginalized, and no serious public discussion can be had, because no one even understands the nature of the problem. The American dream is dying because we have been led to believe that America is a place, but it is really a set of ideas, and we really don't understand today what those ideas even are. How many of us have read the Federalist Papers? Or any of the Founding Fathers' writings? Most of us have no idea how far we are from the Founders' vision of America, the Land of the Free...

12/1/2011 3:45 AM EST

In history the engineering were almost with America,Germany and USSR. Now also the scenerio continues with America and Germany.maany of the Engineering ideas and dreams and new products,innovations,inventions are contributed from these two places.Where as the large scale production of these applications are else where. in the past 20 years this trend has grown leading to all sorts of current economical issues in America.Because mainly America by selling thier intelligence internationally spread the knowledge and every one country is following their path.So engineering dreams are more challenging and competitive with rest of the world.

12/1/2011 4:20 AM EST

I probably also believe that our kids will have a lower "standard of living", but I don't believe that is bad.

Recent generations have increased the standard of living at the expense of the environment and unsustainable use of natural resources. Unless population growth levels off fast, the world, and especially the US, will have to switch to more sustainable practices.

If we use an appropriate measure of "standard of living" then it won't be so bad.

12/1/2011 8:50 AM EST

Look....
Americans, and more specifically engineers, have been sold on a LIE that started in the 80's with ronnie raygun. It's the same economic nonsense sold by the Chicago business school bull$hit artists, like milton friedman, and his sychophantic MBA's. If these guys are so good at managing businesses, why are we in the pickle we are now. Even Dylan in this article reflects the nonsense about the deficit being a big concern. Look folks, name me one country that cut its way to prosperity. You want free market heaven, then go to Somalia where there is little government and little rules. There are a lot of real good economists out there who nail what is going on. Remember engineers, the supply and demand curve. Well, wages create demand. productivity create supply. Wages have flatlined since raygun/friedmanomics and the 80's while productivity has continued exponential growth. They use to move together. You don't have to be a genius to figure out who is screwing who. Lastly, I've encountered a few engineers who are foolish enough to deny evolution. I understand they are not schooled in biology and microbiology; however, this is just nuts. Look, if you want to believe in the supernatural, it's your business; however, don't be surprised when your being taken for a ride by foolish unscientific analysis and don't pretend science can put a good face upon superstition. Remember science and natural phenomenon don't give a damn what us monkey folks BELIEVE!

12/1/2011 11:51 AM EST

The 'occupy' movement is not a spontaneous uprising. It is funded and orchestrated behind the scenes. Of the citizens camped out in the parks, some are actual volunteers. The unreported news is that most are paid.

12/1/2011 12:44 PM EST

I agree that the conditions are tough and that we must reign in government $pending and SIZE, but I must point out that the American dream isn't dead. Many "may" have given up on the dream but many of us have not. If given half a chance we can do better, we can rebuild, we can work towards fixing the many things out of whack (Gov,Taxes,Special Interests,Entitlements). I am not saying eliminate it all / now! I am saying that we need to change our direction and fix what is clearly broken. It will take some time, it will be hard, some will be worse off for awhile, but in the end we will all be better off.

12/1/2011 3:29 PM EST

Compare to the rest of the “civilized” world US is still a land of opportunity more then any place out there. But what's the price? What happens when you let people get as much as they can? Apparently talented healthy and strong prosper (that’s the essence of the American Dream, isn’t it?). Eventually you end up with a handful owning the lion share (isn’t it what we have?). How about the rest who maybe not exactly 99% but they certainly are a majority.
The price as it appears is in the social domain. It would always strike me in the US: outstanding commercial and industrial development, unmatched innovation and best business practices alongside one of the least developed social system in the “civilized” world.

Happily employed professionals all occupied with problem solving and doing well have neither time nor desire to grasp what those Occupy commotion is about, in some cases also so brainwashed that they even consider it wrong never mind “it ain’t exactly clear” what it is. You can go on with the “business as usual” or “we’ve seen worse”, but if it “ain’t exactly clear” to you it does not mean it's not your concern.

Does that invisible hand really do a good job? When we see that enormous disproportion with wealth accumulating only on one end of the table shouldn’t we ask “how much is enough”? Isn’t it obvious that untamed greed is eroding the very American Dream? And if the Dream is only for some with the majority having to struggle, isn’t it too high a price to pay for the Dream? Why should I be proud of my counted fellow citizen having their Dream come true in a shape of $$ when I can not even get a paycheck, try as I may? Only because I live in the same country?
These are all the questions leading to the uncomfortable truth we tend to dodge (just read all the neutral and cautious and downright optimistic comments).

The Occupy people are raising the questions and even though we refuse to understand them it does not mean the questions are not concerning us.

12/2/2011 4:57 AM EST

I feel American dream is still alive. Its so honestly put and you can see in the society that its so true.

12/2/2011 11:44 AM EST

For me, from Botswana, I think this is still the best place to be. I do not know what they see, but I see hope in AMERICA.

12/2/2011 7:56 PM EST

Lots of talk radio to ear (bypass the brain) to mouth posts here.

12/2/2011 8:13 PM EST

I believe this country has the resources, material and willing people if only we start to believe in ourselves that we need to innovate to stay ahead of the curve but share the rewards too. To become richer, we have to make co-workers richer too other wises we will continue to struggle and only answer than is to outsource for cheaper labor
As for the Obama’s administration, they can help raise the spirits around the nation and make it easier for start-up. We have brilliant ideas that are waiting to be cooked but continue to struggle to raise funds and hire talent locally.
The American dream is not dead but most citizens want it without innovation i.e word these days is cheap, no investment and as the top management, want to own it all which is killing the drive.
The silicon valley was built on creativity, large stock handout, hard work & mostly run out of a garage operation with cost cutting as much as possible – success examples are Intel, MS, ROHM, AMD, HP and the list goes on that made even the people down the ground level somewhat richer but more so motivated individuals.
The model today is opposite of that made this country a success with each wanting total ownership. Engineers are treated like the AT&T’s phone installer, like back in England 20yrs ago where I came from. Which makes it very hard to find investors even for ground breaking ideas? So, with little VC capital and older rich Engineers coming back as angel who what to own 99% of the company, there is little or no motivation for a new candidate other than the privilege of having a job.
Totally owner owned company, a typical model in Asian countries, will also eventually breakdown as we evolve the technology and it gets easier for anyone to jump in.
Bottom line, work intelligently and keep mind open for new ideas so we can achieve more in less time.

12/4/2011 10:09 AM EST

EE is alive and well but the thriving areas aren't in consumer electronics, which appears to be the heart of EE and is all coming from China. To name a few, military, medical, automobile & network communications are growing so fast, there are jobs a plenty. A problem is most US graduates want to go were they want, not where they are needed. Whereas immigrants are far more flexible and are immediately employed, finding the US dream easy to obtain once the hard to obtain J1 visa is done. Look at the actual federal stats, not the opinions of others, me included:

http://data.bls.gov/oep/noeted/empoptd.jsp

12/4/2011 11:10 AM EST

Part 1:

I am pro-America, pro-capitalism and the American dream, so I am deeply concerned about the way the US is sleep-walking into economic defeat.

Historically US Capitalism defeated USSR Communism, not with tanks or bombs, but with economics and by undermining their social structure by instilling greed for the western lifestyle amongst their populous. Sadly for the Russians, they ended up with a mafia government rather than a democracy, but at least the US came out on top.

The new economic world-war is between US Capitalism and Chinese Communism, and so far China is winning.
China knows they are at war and they have learned the lessons from the USSR’s defeat. I am not even sure that the average US citizen has even noticed that they are at war, despite the number of casualties (aka unemployed people) around them.

The Chinese can make long-term economic battle plans that western democracies cannot do due to their regular changes in elected leadership. They can undercut US manufactured good prices by brutally oppressing their workers. Now China is using its financial might to buy up bankrupt US companies at rock-bottom prices. Soon the US trade deficit will reach unsustainable levels and then China will be in a position to dictate American policy. Once the US industry and major financial institutions are all owned by China, China will then be left as the world’s only superpower. America will be left as just a political puppet-state of China, populated with lazy and badly educated citizens who will be viewed by their Chinese masters with the kind of distain that Americans all-too-often currently reserve for Mexicans.

12/4/2011 11:10 AM EST

Part 2:

It’s not quite too late. America could still fight back if its citizens woke-up. In fact it is actually really rather simple, all ordinary Americans need to do to win is:
1) Stop blaming Obama, the banks or anyone else for their economic misery and recognise that Chinese Communism is the economic enemy, and that it is their own purchasing habits that are to blame for destroying the American economy.
2) Check the label on everything you buy to see what country it was made in and simply don’t buy goods that say “Made in China”
3) Boycott (or refuse to buy shares-in) companies who deal-with and import Communist-made products and components.
4) Buy goods made in American from American made components.
5) Start manufacturing companies and export your American made goods.
6) Educate your children properly in STEM subjects and in business economics.
The government cannot do all of this for you as imposing unilateral trade sanctions on China would not be legal. There needs to be groundswell of resentment against communism amongst the American citizens in order to make it work.
If American civilisation falls then it will only have its own citizens to blame.

12/5/2011 12:21 AM EST

Remember when the American Dream was not a dream? ;-)

12/6/2011 11:29 AM EST

You can watch George Carlin weigh in on this topic on Youtube: "The owners of this country know the truth: It's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

12/9/2011 3:45 PM EST

"If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. Think what will happen if productivity increases went on in the long term, while wages were stagnant."

I think you will find, most modern economists agree that if we don't maintain a reasonable growth in productivity, and that means on the order of more than 2 percent per year, inflation will rise, real incomes will decline, and the economy will stagnate.

It's not "a moderate inflation" that these economists are calling for, as much as "moderate productivity increase."

The idea that wage increase by itself would lead to greater wealth, in a macroeconomic sense, is simply not supported by fact. Productivity has been increasing, in terms of long term trend, with plenty of hiccups along the way, ever since the Industrial Revolution. There's no reason why this long term trend can't be maintained.