E-car's future doesn't hinge on batteries

9/9/2010 6:23 PM EDT

Cool stuff. The plan to lease batteries is similar to the model of Better Place. See http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4088692/ESC-Keynoter-sketches-out-vision-for-electric-cars

9/9/2010 7:14 PM EDT

Thanks for giving us the URL of your article on Better Place, Rick. Swapping batteries and leasing batteries are similar ideas. It's sensible, and it does make a lot of sense. And yet, the biggest hurdle for such an idea to take off is the very fact that the e-vehicle market is still an emerging market -- far from maturing. Everyone wants to see more technology getting developed before standardizations...

But hey, how long have we been working on
rechargeable batteries for EVs? Maybe it's time for key automotive companies to come to the table?

9/9/2010 8:48 PM EDT

Nah. The cost of replacing batteries is certainly one obstacle to wide adoption of EVs. That's all this idea addresses. Even swapping is a big nuisance, considering the range. The main problem is the deficient amount of energy available in the vehicle. My sense is, EVs will only become truly interesting when the battery is taken out, or maybe reduced to the capacity of the battery in "mild hybrids." In spite of the incessant hype, batteries have not progressed enough yet, in decades.

We need a healthy source of H2 in the vehicle, i.e. not from H2 tanks but something better (like a hydrocarbon fuel), and we need good, efficient fuel cells.

9/9/2010 9:00 PM EDT

The challenges for fuel cells are well known and we ain't there yet by a long shot: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_challenges.shtml

And I'm not so sure I want to drive a vehicle that has more than four wheels. That's also a long shot and you need a trucker's license for those on today's roads in the U.S. I do admire the pure inventiveness of the Sim-drive development. The Michelins and Firestones of the world could make a killing on selling "smart wheels" with their tires on it.

9/10/2010 6:38 AM EDT

I also agree to the idea of leasing out batteries. In one of the other EETimes articles on EV, I had made this comment. Leasing out batteries has two advantages -1)It reduces the initial cost of EV and makes it competitive to the conventional vehicle 2) it removes the hassle and time involved in recharging the batteries

9/10/2010 11:59 AM EDT

Leasing is a good idea, but it is not going to enough. I agree with Bert, the key to addressing the global warming is not carbon free, but carbon neutral. So if we can produce hydrocarbon fuel directly from, say solar energy and carbon dioxide and water, there will be no net increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, and it requires minimal change of existing infrastructure. In addition, the large scale production of batteries may cause some other environmental problems we can not foresee now.

We understand hydrocarbon fuel very well so we should stick with it and all we need to do is to figure out a environmental friendly way of making it.

9/10/2010 1:07 PM EDT

The benefit of in-wheel motor is to free up more space for storage including a bigger battery. What's the other value proposition?

The concept of leasing battery is great. Not only does it reduce the burden and hassle on the consumer side but also it will give the better "after-life" of the battery. The battery will likely get into a better recycling process. The economy will then work more efficiently.

9/10/2010 2:34 PM EDT

"I am not interested in batteries." That says it all. The future of electric automobiles doesn't have anything to do with whether the motor is in the wheel or under the hood or on top of the car. The motor in the wheel is an obvious incremental improvement to electric cars that has nothing to do with whether they are financially or environmentally viable.

Without a more efficient storage or conversion system than those currently available, electric cars are like heavy gold jewelry - a show of pride, wealth, and arrogance.

9/10/2010 3:26 PM EDT

This is a very excellent idea of leasing the batteries, just think of all the cars in the world running on batteries, this will cause a huge recycling requirement, and it is a great idea to have responsibility of the batteries remaining with the leasing agency, that way they will be able to employ better means of reuse and recycle.
This is a very great idea, and I wish all the best for the implementation and battery standardization.

9/10/2010 7:47 PM EDT

This kind of ideas have been around for some years now but it's great someone finally assembling the necessary echo-system to implement them.

Fukutake-san is absolutely right when he says it's all about standardisation. I wish him and his colleagues the very best of luck.

9/10/2010 11:52 PM EDT

When a person of Mr. Fukutake's stature shows an interest in something, I'm inclined to want to learn more about it. The one thing I hope is that he urges the developers to take into account "prudent avoidance" of strong EM fields in the design of the car, perhaps by incorporating light-weight shielding between the passenger cabin and the largest sources of EM fields in the vehicle (perhaps the wheel wells, where the in-wheel motors are).

9/11/2010 10:04 AM EDT

In this e-car scenario I would like know whether Ultra capacitors have any role to play. I would also like know what is current situation in Ultra capacitors. Aren't these going to replace the conventional batteries someday for EV and Hybrid vehicle applications?

9/11/2010 10:36 AM EDT

I believe that Soichiro Fukutake is 100% correct on this one. The auto industry has been very conservative and the least innovative industry over the past few years. It could be that no one is willing to make a hugh investment in battery technology at this time; or because there is much talk from consumers, but consumers are not willing to accept change toward this new technology. I believe that long-distance driving is a factor toward battery technology and it must be improve if we expect society to accept it. But I also believe that it is consumer’s attitude toward change as it relates to automotive technology.

9/11/2010 12:27 PM EDT

I totally agree with standardization in parallel with leasing battery. Once the electrical and mechanical specification are standardized. Car manufacturers can build whatever they want and focus on something they are strong at (electrical and mechanical stuff, but not the chemistry of battery). Battery manufacturers can also try whatever technology, no matter it is ultracap, special fuel cell or an innovative chemistry, to build a black box that meet the electrical and mechanical requirement. Drivers also don't need to worry about the battery lifetime and the high ownership cost. Once more, I believe the energy companies are happy to be the battery leasing companies. There is a company in China (a JV of electric power company and fuel company) that works with Government on the leasing business. I think it is easier to work out in China as all parties are more or less well controlled by the Government (the cost of setting it up in democratic countries like US may be higher and the progress may take longer as there are too many parties being involved). I'm hoping to see its success in China.

9/11/2010 5:17 PM EDT

I'm excited about the in wheel motors because of their ability to intelligently provide power where it is needed (skid control), easily enable regenerative braking, and eliminate mechanical transmission losses. The challenge will to be ensure that the motors are light enough that having them move with the wheels on bumps is not an issue, and that they can tolerate the harsh environment so close to the road. Are size and power issues the reason for the eye catching but otherwise improbably proposal for an 8 wheel drive car? Regarding leasing batteries, the interest in leasing will go away when batteries are available that are affordable, reliable, and recharge quickly.

9/12/2010 3:28 AM EDT

I wish SIM-Drive will change the way the cars run on our roads. This technology looks really promising and fukutake hit it right by investing in SIM drive. Leasing of battery also looks an innovative business idea. The standardization of battery will also help the evolution of better electric vehicles. But there is lot of work left regarding the safety aspect of this technology. Many automotive companies should evaluate the prototypes to add more to the safety.

9/12/2010 5:53 AM EDT

Leasing batteries would work if it is reliable and easily accessible, like going to a gas station. However, if not all batteries are created equal, pricing schemes can become quite complicated.

9/13/2010 12:55 AM EDT

Standardization and the ability to swap banks of batteries (where different sized vehicles would have different multiples) with supporting infrastucture (stations, etc.) is the key. By leasing, the batteries would be exchanged like propane tanks are for bbq grills now.
I thought years ago that trains should do this. It would be fairly easy to standardize, have charging stations, swap out batteries and retrofit existing "engines".

9/13/2010 12:47 PM EDT

A lot of so-called "impossible" technologies have been invented, commercialized and accepted by the consuming public. On the other hand, even given that, I can't imagine building an infrastructure that would support the fast and easy swapping out of a 600 pound part of the car every 100 - 200 miles.

Think about taking a drive up to a remote ski resort. You get there, enjoy your day and need to swap the battery at 10:00pm so you can get home. Sorry, but it was a great day for skiing and every battery station is out of charged battery packs because so many people came up to ski that day. And, when they do have charged packs to dribble out, you're number 42 in line. Not practical.

I can understand the desire to focus on one aspect; the motors in this case. But to do so at this early stage in the emergence of the product is likely an immovable game stopper.

In-wheel motors may be one of the best approaches to the electric powerplant, but without a three to five minute "refill", the specific architecture of the propulsion system is a moot point.

Duane Benson
Screaming Circuits

9/13/2010 12:49 PM EDT

Swapping battery is not a new concept. Hong Kong has been building charging stations & ways to swap batteries. But one concern is fake batteries. Will you swap your genuine German/Japanese batteries with some unknown brands in the charging station?

9/15/2010 12:29 AM EDT

I know that gears that transfer power from engine to wheels are a big cause of inefficiency in all types of vehicles. And since in-wheel electric motors transfer power to the wheels directly, they should be more efficient than other electric vehicles, also lighter.

Also another advantage would be if one wheel motor fails it still would be possible to continue driving the vehicle, unlike other electric cars.

9/17/2010 5:02 PM EDT

There are so many fallacies in this thread it is hard to know where to begin. Leasing an absurdly expensive component will not change the fact that it makes the car impractical. It might remove the inherent liability and reliability problems of a battery, but it does not change the cost structure, it makes it worse. Experienced auto people know that leases are for fools with more money than sense, who like to pay hundreds of dollars a month to end up with no principal or hard equity. My buddy designs electric car controllers and he calls fuel cells "fool's cells". He tells me the only thing stupider is hydrogen. They are both promoted by scientists, who don't have to care about cost. He calls these scientists "silver-tongued grant suckers". Talk to some automotive engineers, not the politician marketing dorks but the real line-level folks that have to get this hype-fest crap working. See you at SAE Convergence next month. Hub motors are great for bicycles, but an electric motor has a torque and power and efficiency curve just like a gasoline engine, and you need a transmission, at least two speeds, to keep it in it's sweet spot. Hub motors also cause horrific handling since they add so much to the unsprung weight. They are also bad for NVH (noise, vibration, and handling). To say the auto business is not innovative is to ignore the mind-boggling improvements in pollution, safety, convenience, and performance, all done will small cost increases and all done in an environment that needs the temperature range and vibration resistance of a military or aviation design.

9/17/2010 5:02 PM EDT

(Continued)
The simple fact is that it does not make sense to haul around 300 pounds of batteries that cost $10,000 when you drive in America, a country with a large proportion of high-speed freeway driving. If you have a cab, maybe. Trains use diesel-electric hybrids since they need a lot of smooth torque at low speeds and they operate at a fixed speed. Airplanes use jets since they operate at constant speed at high altitude. I was an automotive engineer for ten years. We tried to put a small turbine motor in a city bus in 1972. It had way too much fuel consumption, jets don't like to idle. Electric cars are a at best a marketing ploy and at worse a hoax. There will be micro-hybrids that use a bigger (lead acid) battery and a starter-generator so the engine stops when the car stops, but that is about it. As that Tesla engineer told me, batteries improve at 8% a year, not 100% like semiconductors, so don't expect a pure electric car as a primary family vehicle for a long time. There are some electric dirt bikes and electric scooters that work pretty well, so if you want to be conspicuous green, hum around in one of those and give up the safety, convenience, and passenger and cargo space. Golf carts are great too, although Yamaha sells both gas and electric carts and implies sensible golf course owners should buy the gas ones. The electric motor was invented by Faraday in 1830. The internal combustion engine was the great new technology that replaced it around 1900. Get over it. I built an electric car 10 years ago and guess what? They sucked back then and they will suck for as long as batteries cost a fortune and weigh a lot. Look at a Kelly Blue Book. A used car with electric windows sells for less than one with manual windows. Wait till you see the price penalty that the market will put on a ten-year-old electric car. And I sure hope you don't think these battery packs will work in a Minnesota winter or an Arizona summer.

9/21/2010 1:02 PM EDT

No offence to the guy, but building a fortune on language instruction does not a car person make.

I make great power supplies, solar power systems, and LED lights. I would not know where to start on language instruction.

This is at best a minor improvement. In fact, it is not even really new.

Range + Cost + Refueling: All three must be solved. This effectively solves none of those issues. Not one.

Leasing a battery does not magically make it cheaper. In fact, since you will have more hands in the pot, I could argue that it must make it more expensive.... sort of like my leased cable box which I could have bought by now.

Instant replacement packs are interesting as they solve the refueling issue.

In terms of recycling, I am not remotely concerned. We are talking about something currently in the hundreds of kilograms. You do not just put that out with the trash. There will be no choice but to dispose of it properly. I would guarantee regulations on the matter unless the industry solves on its own (See PVCYCLE for solar).

Which gets us back to range. Battery technology still needs to improve 3x before somewhat mass adoption occurs. It is great that I can get back and forth to work, but what if I want to take a side trip, see friends, etc. I think in the short term, the Chevy Volt has the right idea. Battery when you can ... which people will use since electricity will be much cheaper. Range extending engine when needed or when I forget to change the battery. I forgot to plug my car in is not going to go over to well with the boss.

What we need in the short term is a very efficient and small generator that can sustain enough power to push a mid-size car at reasonable highway speeds. Acceleration can always be handled by the electric system. Shame that fuel cells are not there yet. A fuel-cell electric hybrid would be a good next 20 year solution.

9/21/2010 1:11 PM EDT

aefrgqergqwergqe ... Lots of great comments speckled with ranting that was not completely accurate.

Cold weather for a battery can be solved to some degree with insulation and self heating. Not completely, but it can significantly increase capacity. Arizona is an issue for battery life for many technologies, but LiFePO4 does not have as bad of high temp degradation as other technologies such as Lithium-Cobalt and basic Lead-Acid.


Even in America, the average commute is still not as large as one would think. Many could do most of their trips (not all) with limited range vehicles. But to your point, if it is highway driving, then hauling weight does not matter. Air drag does not go up. Rolling resistance will some, but acceleration and deceleration of the mass is significantly recovered in an electric vehicle.


Your buddy design electric controllers. That does not make him a fuel cell expert. They are not great, but there is a good chance they will be. Many technologies were not great but through improvement now are. Most of the electronic things we use currently could be considered that.

9/29/2010 9:06 PM EDT

The question is not if electric will take over, it's when. The key is finding energy storage that works, as has been pointed out by many above. Wikipedia say Hydrogen can be converted, stored, and burned at 93% efficiency. I doubt that, but if it's true, that's pretty good. Cars will have to be lighter and people will have to SLOW DOWN. Those latter two will be tough to institute quickly. All of this will be accelerated "naturally" if the price of gas doubles or quadruples.

10/12/2010 9:47 AM EDT

No wonder we're in such a financial mess! Only a couple of posts question the idea that leasing a battery is going to somehow make it cheaper! What magical source of funds is Fukutake planning on tapping into to make up the difference?

10/13/2010 7:45 AM EDT

I don't care much for leasing vs. buying, but the idea of a standard battery is the key. Hey, I have two batteries for my camera, don't you think I should have more than one for the car either? Quick swapping would allow for daytime charging with PV panels, would increase range etc. This is the typical case where "better" is the enemy of "good": it's time to sit down and define a standard *now*, before EV start to be bought by masses.

10/15/2010 12:13 PM EDT

We are way too early in the innovation cycle for batteries I think to "force" a standard though there is nothing stopping battery companies from getting together with car companies and doing that.