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EDWARDP.SAYRE
There is a clear differentialtion in XAUI Ethernet as well as 10G Ethernet ...
MartinM
It is not only Apple using it, also Sony has announced to use it: e.g. see ...
PCI Express takes on Thunderbolt
Rick Merritt
6/22/2011 6:06 PM EDT
"The big issue here is proprietary versus industry standard," said Nathan Brookwood, principal of market watcher Insight64 (Saratoga, Calif.). "It's not clear third parties will have access to Thunderbolt on the same basis they get access to PCI Express," he said.
Indeed, one chip maker on the show floor of the annual PCI SIG developers conference here said his company is working on a Thunderbolt design. However, the gating item to getting it completed is getting access to the technology from Intel, he said.
The motivation for the PCIe cable "wasn’t spawned due to Thunderbolt, it was more about the shift to thin notebooks and tablets that means you just can't mechanically package things the same way we used to," said one source close to the effort who asked not to be named.
"Thunderbolt was interesting, but it did not solve the problems we have the way we want to have them solved," the source said.
Thunderbolt uses a router chip on either end of the connection to support multiple protocols and daisy chaining of devices. Apple "is fine with the extra cost of the router chips, but we don’t need [the multiprotocol support] and a couple extra chips don't make business sense for us," the source said.
The use of four parallel channels and a thinner cable and connector are also expected to give the PCIe approach a leg up over Thunderbolt in throughput and ease of supporting thin systems.
Intel introduced Thunderbolt in February when Apple debuted MacBook computers using it. It uses five wires to support two 10 Gbits/s bi-directional channels on a common transport layer that can carry 4x PCIe Gen 2 or DisplayPort traffic.
A handful of system makers said they support Thunderbolt including executives in Canon's camera and video group. LaCie, Promise Technology and Western Digital said they will support the interconnect in external drives. A handful of other companies said they will provide support in mainly software products.
Other than Apple, only Sony has so far been reported to have plans to support Thunderbolt. The PCI SIG's decision to create a competing technology suggests mainstream PC makers on the PCI SIG board such as Dell and Hewlett-Packard do not want to adopt Thunderbolt.
When Thunderbolt was announced, at least one top PC maker said privately the company is moving ahead with USB 3.0 as a fast external interconnect. It is less interested in Thunderbolt than in seeing Intel more aggressively support USB 3.0, he said.
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LarryM99
6/22/2011 6:44 PM EDT
I like the idea of some competition for Thunderbolt, but I am a little leery of the blurring of the lines between backplane buses and communication channels. Will there be mapped memory on the other end of that three-meter link?What will be the BER for large block transfers? Links like USB 3.0 are built to address the concerns of a comm channel, and you don't expect it to have low latency for direct memory accesses. Am I being old-fashioned here or are these real concerns?
Larry M.
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toto555
6/27/2011 1:48 PM EDT
If you have missed this blog:http://www.semiwiki.com/forum/content/390-will-thunderbolt-kill-superspeed-usb.html
you should have a look at it! It clearly explains that TB is just a way for Intel to capture a new chip market, the TB Controller, by using existing technologies (PCI Express and DisplayPort) which are served by other chip makers and their partners IP vendors (for PCIe PHY & Controller, same with DP)...
In other word, ThunderBolt is a way for Intel to kill their competition, make Apple happy... and eventually kill SS USB.
Will it really happen? I guess (and I hope) NOT!
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EDWARDP.SAYRE
7/13/2011 2:46 PM EDT
There is a clear differentialtion in XAUI Ethernet as well as 10G Ethernet between cables and backplanes by the use of similar but different standards. The same differentialtion between cables and backplanes can be maintained in PCI-X. The semiconductor technologies in all cases of multi-Gigabit serial are similar. I see no problems.
Ed Sayre, CTO North East Systems Associates, Inc. (NESA)
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goafrit
6/22/2011 8:19 PM EDT
I doubt if this will be a competition. Thunderbolt has solidified its position to be worried about PCI Express in this domain. I give it to Thunderbolt
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muna_majisa
6/23/2011 12:41 AM EDT
I suspect the success of thundervolt in the market except itel-apple
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realistic1
6/23/2011 12:09 PM EDT
PLX has been demonstrating PCIe Gen3 over optical since last year at IDF. You can see a demo at DevCon today.
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JimHas
6/23/2011 1:05 PM EDT
TB is nothing more than PCI-e with some routing capability. It makes a lot more sense if the SIG come up with a standard for extending the PCI-e to external devices and evolves from there.
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jbreher
6/23/2011 3:16 PM EDT
Drat. Competing standards.
@Larry - I like the idea of cabled PCIe if only to create vendor-interoperable docking stations for notebooks and tablets. I see this development as a huge benefit for end users.
I understand the desire to be free of licensing issues. However, with a 2-year headstart, TB may be fully entrenched by the time the new standard rolls out.
I think the ideal situation would be if this announcement spurs Intel to open source the TB spec. I'm not holding my breath, however...
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LarryM99
6/23/2011 9:00 PM EDT
It seems like Bluetooth 3.0/4.0 would be a better choice for a good docking station, particularly for an ARM-based tablet. I still wonder about the tradeoffs of extending PCIe outside of the case. Maybe I'm just being narrow-minded, or maybe I'm unduly biased by a project I was on that tried (unsuccessfully) to significantly extend a VME backplane bus.
Larry M.
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docdivakar
6/27/2011 2:19 PM EDT
@jbreher: Cabled PCIe is not just an idea, has been a reality for years, so the evolution to the next generation will be smooth. In comparison, TB has to start from 1.0. Many vendors today make PCIe cables, both copper & fiber (One Stop Systems, for example):
http://www.onestopsystems.com/accessories.php
One Stop also makes PCIe Gen 2 switches that are available today.
The 3m limitation will confine the applications to most top-of-rack applications. As long as there is an uplink from the rack to the next layer of switching, this shouldn't be an issue.
Dr. MP Divakar
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yyrkoon
6/24/2011 1:39 AM EDT
This technology, at least in concept has been around for years. I remember reading about the specification well over 3 years ago. At that time, my mind began swimming of the possibilities. It was a great idea I thought.
Fast forward in time, we get Thunderbolt, and now I am thinking "you've GOT to be joking". This time, I hope it gets done right. Assuming there really is a this time.
@Larry M.
Extending PCIe "outside of the case" has already been happening even long before Thunderbolt. AKA the ExpressCard interface found on some( many?) notebooks. Though perhaps maybe not exactly what you're talking about ?
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kinnar
6/24/2011 2:11 AM EDT
This is a very good interconnect alternative planned for supporting PCIe on the Tablets and Tabs. But the lengths specified here are some what beyond the need of the targeted systems.
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LarryM99
6/24/2011 10:06 AM EDT
The length is my major concern. ExpressCard does give the capability to plug in external cards, but it's generally not used to extend across the room. This isn't a big deal for an interface designed to do that (i.e. USB) but it can be problematic for backplane interfaces.
Larry M.
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elctrnx_lyf
6/25/2011 3:36 AM EDT
Multiple standard trying to find their place in both board to board and cable interface is really confusing. USB 3.0 will no more required if PCIe also comes to cable.
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elctrnx_lyf
6/25/2011 3:39 AM EDT
If thunderbolt replaces the PCI express inside the chips, then probably the industry will move toward this slowly in the future.
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DHarmon
6/28/2011 5:59 PM EDT
Thunderbolt is not intended to eliminate USB 3.0 as an interface.
TB is really only about connectors if you think about it. It muxes existing PCIe and DP signals, sends them out over an active cable, and then the peripheral demuxes the signals and uses either PCIe or DP as dictated by the application. TB does not provide any more BW for the IOs - it uses existing BW.
Now cabled PCIe does offer a higher BW pipe, but as many have pointed out already, it has been around for years and it has done nothing to eliminate USB as an I/O.
Both TB and cabled PCIe offer some intriguing options for docking solutions for small form factor devices such as tablets and NetBooks. Figuring out how to use this for charging the devices is critical as well - and an area where USB is used almost exclusively today.
Neither PCIe nor TB will ever be used for keyboards/mice/etc. directly connected to a device. Therefore USB 3.0 with its backwards compatibility to support these type of low BW devices as well as 5Gb transfers to flash drives makes it ideal for stand alone box IOs.
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fdunn
6/28/2011 9:14 PM EDT
TB is Apple pushing Intel for a proprietary interface. As such I only expect to see it on Apple products. It will linger on there but will not catch on in the WinTel domain.
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MartinM
6/29/2011 1:37 PM EDT
It is not only Apple using it, also Sony has announced to use it: e.g. see http://www.extremetech.com/computing/88370-sony-vaio-z-thunderbolt-price-macs-look-cheap
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