GeniusEE: Hey China/India - if you don't keep your wages down, we'll outsource your jobs to Vietnam and Nigeria
This can't be true. Before u say this u need to understand the positive things that are around india and china... like large population, good brains (didnt mean Vietnam and nigerial is poor in it) etc..
Alas, there are two kinds of people in the world. Those who divide the world up into two parts and those who do not ;-). Sure, there will be always SOME jobs that will come back or stay if wages rise elsewhere. Job flight may act more like a wage hysteresis curve though and at the ratio of around 10:1 in wages, it could take a less than equal pay reversal to cause a large reversal. The big question is, with the field becoming more complex and as the bar raises ever hirer as pay drops, will anyone in their right mind do so much for so little? For myself, I am thinking of going back to school to learn consumer electronics engineering to catch one of those returning jobs ;-).
commented on Nov 20, 2009 8:41:46 PM
As long as population in China, India keep increasing, and people are ready to work for any money in a country where average per capita income is less than $4000, there won't be any crease in wages in these poor countries. "
Engineering is not a job any one of 1.3 Billion people can do, so your supply/demand generalities do not apply to engineering. We know of many skilled Chinese and Indian workers who leave the job after three or four months to go work for a competitor who pays more. And that cycle continues and repeats to the point where India itself has recently been reported to outsource jobs to the USA due to efficiency considerations for the buck (rupee?) spent. Retention of skilled workers is a major problem for India and China NOW as is the salary escalation that results in people jumping jobs. This was also a phenomenon in Silicon Valley in the late 1990's, where you'd call on an engineer and six weeks later they'd be gone to a competitor.
The argument of working hard, versus hardly working is a question of efficiency and skill, something that still generally lacks in these developing countries as compared to USA. Most countries place family, and living ahead of corporate interests, which is a good thing and, coldly, is lacking in American society to where engineers in Si Valley work 12-16 hours a day, parking their offspring in daycare versus nurturing them in a nuclear family atmosphere.
I agree that the net pay is what matters in the grand scheme. A $70,000 engineer nets more money in central Illinois after housing and taxes than he would at $125,000 in San Jose. I could, as an example, work in Thailand for $50,000 and make more net money than either of them.
Cristi The numbers are not that far off. Having a daughter, I am sensitive to your plight, but engineering is factually a male dominated profession and it's no secret that women are significantly less paid than men in this profession. Why, I don't know - maybe you could enlighten us.
When i started in this industry in 86 , a "kid" out of school was making 25k/year while his counterparts working for 10+ years in the company were making 2x-3x his salary. As he saw it he did equal work and wanted equal pay, the boss said no, he quit, started his own company slapping PC's together and selling them to schools or whoever wanted them. He made a few million and moved on.
Point, if you don't like your job/salary, get another one or start your own company.
Can there be "overpay" in a market-driven environment? Do you believe there's someone intentionally paying more then what's reasonable? Can hardly be someone's act, specially given the scale, don't you think?
Engineering in North America and Europe is getting "out of fashion", that's the ugly truth. Some 7-10 years ago there were dozens of coop students looking to start their careers with every more or less respected company. Not the same these days.
Marketing, finances, management, law, healthcare - those have been way more attractive lately for people with brains and motivation, - the people who understand true effects of outsourcing, especially long term effects.
Someone here believes Engineers in China or India will eventually make $50K+. That?s clearly a wishful thinking. Those who started the trend and who maintains it knows very well what they are doing. It?s a ?natural? process after all and it?s not too hard to see the tendencies if you have common sense and are not afraid of applying it. With only a few highly-paid best experts left to work in the West as ?supervisors? or ?coordinators? Indian and Chinese Engineers will have to take on the bulk of work still for a small fraction of money an Engineer in the West makes today. Engineers in India or China ?walking out of jobs?? Could you please give a good representative statistics so I can believe it?