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UQS
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re: Startup claims 'Holy Grail' of SoC design
UQS   6/18/2012 6:27:12 AM
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R_Colin_Johnson
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re: Startup claims 'Holy Grail' of SoC design
R_Colin_Johnson   5/2/2012 5:10:00 PM
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I recently saw a demo of a Xilinx tool called Vivado High-Level Synthesis which seems to work pretty much like Algotochip's tool, but only for FPGAs. You define your application in C-code, then pull down menu options for implementation strategies, choosing options like use "FIFO", after which it creates RTL and gives you performance metrics. If the RTL does not meet spec, you pull down different options until it does. In the end, it sends a file over to the HDL tool that you can tweak to your heart's desire. This is probably the way Algotochip's internal tools works--only its engineers do the tweaking.

krisi
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re: Startup claims 'Holy Grail' of SoC design
krisi   5/2/2012 2:11:12 PM
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Not too many @gatorfan...and many of those can be just implemented in FPGA

gatorfan
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re: Startup claims 'Holy Grail' of SoC design
gatorfan   5/2/2012 1:55:06 PM
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This has been debated now for 20 years. I don't see one of the primary tradeoffs discussed: per unit cost optimization (ie, die area) of this method versus current design flow. A bigger die *might* be acceptable for low cycletime, low volume products. And how many of those exist out there?

KB3001
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re: Startup claims 'Holy Grail' of SoC design
KB3001   4/29/2012 12:02:03 AM
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Unless their hardware architecture is heavily constrained beforehand, I can't see this being the case.... unless they've managed to solve an NP-hard problem with today's computer technology and the rest of humanity does not know it yet :-)

KarlS
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re: Startup claims 'Holy Grail' of SoC design
KarlS   4/28/2012 1:30:25 PM
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They take C algorithms and test vectors as input. They did not say C program. No doubt the C algorithms have to model the RTL design, so they take a design modeled in C as input to the EDA tool. I am doing a similar thing with C# as a hobby project and it is not hard to do BUT the designer has to do the hardware design first. The main advantage is that a SW IDE has much better debug/incremental compile capability than the HW EDA tools. I can step through the model and make changes at a breakpoint and continue with practically no delay as opposed to recompiling HDL and whatever else the tool needs to do. So the hook is to let people assume the input is a C program, but in reality it is another HDL of sorts that is used to generate HDL that EDA can use. The logic design is first done by generating a restricted/subset of C.

Luis Sanchez
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re: Startup claims 'Holy Grail' of SoC design
Luis Sanchez   4/27/2012 12:07:37 AM
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Interesting to read and learn about the process of making a SoC. Looks like 8 to 16 weeks is still a short time. I will keep an eye on the market to see if this is really a breakthrough. Though, I think like in most cases... it will work for some but not for others. We'll see.

jeremybirch
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re: Startup claims 'Holy Grail' of SoC design
jeremybirch   4/26/2012 3:33:39 PM
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Looks like it would be useful for application specific designs which need to move off FPGA or existing microprocessors for volume cost reasons, however it is likely to struggle if the clock speed is high. Consider generating a given waveform on a signal - if this has to be done by an RTL designer his state machine can be coded in gates and run off a high speed clock. For a microprocessor based solution, it needs to be coded in instructions and linked to the instruction clock rate which in turn is limited by the architecture of the microprocessor and all the other instructions that need to be implemented. There may be ways around this: 1) spot all such signals and build little RTL sections for each and then have them triggered by the microprocessor instructions 2) have a separate microprocessor for each set of signals and get the clock speed to match But then it starts looking more custom than automated. Perhaps that explains the spread in times it takes to deliver a solution. A long time ago I used a certain company's behavioural synthesis tool to try to implement a video scaler. The reps swore blind it was up to the task, but it then transpired that although it could quite happily model what I wanted to do, it could not get the performance because the dominant delay was in the "next state" logic and that was not part of what the tool could optimise for timing. In this current case, the next state logic is exactly what the microprocessor is doing it seems, so there are likely to be similar issues. If what you want is just a faster, cheaper and lower power version of something you already do in C then that is ok, but I am sceptical it is an alternative for what people design chips in RTL for.

Dan.Clein
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re: Startup claims 'Holy Grail' of SoC design
Dan.Clein   4/25/2012 2:24:38 PM
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Sorry left the comment in teh wrong box :)

Dan.Clein
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re: Startup claims 'Holy Grail' of SoC design
Dan.Clein   4/25/2012 2:23:24 PM
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A lot of software companies tried to lure us in believing that they have the secret to replace the known flow from marketing to GDSII. Some started only at RTL to GDSII like Monterey, some proposed solutions to generate schematic to layout with circuit optimization like Barcelona Design… Barcelona results were DRC and LVS clean ? Monterey disappeared, Barcelona became Sabio Labs and is now part of Magma/Synopsys Analog suit hopefully)… Good ideas don’t necessarily make good business models. We have to read all these marketing hypes between the lines. They have to sell a product (or service) so they “promise” ALL the capabilities. Our job is to see how much of this technology is “sound”, and if we really have this specific type of design in our companies… Each of these new startups is trying to address a specific problem, and in some cases they do. The problem is the marketing/sales people are advertising a solution that will solve everything and save the day or a lot of money/resources. DAC 2012 is coming, time to put such software (service) on the demo list. Let’s see what will be the conclusions in 3 months. Until then, no reason to argue, we don’t really have any facts… one or two successful users (customers) quotes can help, I did not see any yet… If it is only a service, it could be mathematical models and technology or just an army of low paid people somewhere in the world… We need more info to make any judgment… Dan

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