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braccia
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re: Beware technology bearing gifts; turn off the light
braccia   9/13/2012 3:45:30 PM
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Frank is more right than he knows! There is an earlier link here in the thread that is interesting. http://tonn.ie/p/deception-behind-banning-light-bulbs.html I do not agree with the author in criticism of for example LEDs - but see point 6 energy savings and the institutional references eg. Cambridge University Network under Sir Alec Broers, Chairman of the UK House of Lords Science and Technology Committee, Scientific Alliance newsletter "The total reduction in EU energy use would be 0.54 x 0.8 x 0.76% = 0.33%, This figure is almost certainly an overestimate, particularly as the inefficiency of conventional bulbs generates heat which supplements other forms of heating in winter. Which begs the question: is it really worth it? Politicians are forcing a change to a particular technology which is fine for some applications but not universally liked, and which has disadvantages. The problem is that legislators are unable to tackle the big issues of energy use effectively, so go for the soft target of a high profile domestic use of energy... ...This is gesture politics." And it's not even "Every little helps" logic... the marginal savings are swallowed not just by the other factors, but since such lighting is used off-peak at night when there is surplus electricity wasted anyway (not least coal). The overall issue of unnecessary consumption might need looking at - but in the case of citizens switching lighting, and the society gains from it, it is simply about dumb citizens unnecessarily stopped in their choices. All lighting types have advantages, in different applications around the house.

braccia
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re: Beware technology bearing gifts; turn off the light
braccia   9/13/2012 3:30:17 PM
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Yes lighthouse is right! People keep confusing lighting usage, with actual national switchover savings from banning domestically used incandescent bulbs. The switchover savings are negligible, fractions of 1% on the institutionally linked data (I checked, also other sources), and that is swallowed anyway as they are used off-peak at night when there is surplus electricity wasted. It is just a case of telling dumb consumers they can't use what they want.

Peter Clarke
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re: Beware technology bearing gifts; turn off the light
Peter Clarke   9/11/2012 2:36:09 PM
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Why should we bother Frank? Because, in my view, we have a responsibility to limit the impact we collectively (and therefore individually) have on the planet. There is a conflict between human beings as inherent consumers enjoying exponential growth in numbers and the long-term sustainability of their place on the planet. I don't have an answer but maybe we can pull back on consumption to give the next generation a change of finding one?

Peter Clarke
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re: Beware technology bearing gifts; turn off the light
Peter Clarke   9/11/2012 2:32:11 PM
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Colin I am with you.

old account Frank Eory
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re: Beware technology bearing gifts; turn off the light
old account Frank Eory   8/24/2012 10:17:56 PM
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Why should anyone bother with saving 1-2% of the grid usage by converting to LED lighting? Our politicians want us all to start driving EVs, which will result in exponential increases in electricity consumption, requiring massive investments in new generating capacity. The 1-2% savings from LED lighting will seem a bit Quixotic in an era in which per capita electricity consumption moves to record highs never before imagined.

Colin Henshaw
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re: Beware technology bearing gifts; turn off the light
Colin Henshaw   8/22/2012 11:38:36 AM
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This was something that I said myself several years ago, and it is only now that others are beginning to realise it. As cheaper and more efficient CFL and LED lighting became available, consumers could now afford more of these for the original price of one incandescent bulb. Consequently they are tempted to install more lights resulting in more light nuisance and light pollution. Consequently we need more stringent legislation to govern the application of lighting at night. For most purposes, 11p.m. curfews and motion operated lighting, in combination, would be ideal, in order to reduce the negative effects of lights being on all the time after dark. Lighting in rural areas is not appropriated and should not be installed unless it is absolutely necessary. Vanity lighting, in the form of skybeams, lasers, and floodlit buildings and monuments are unacceptable in, or if they can be seen from, residential, suburban or rural areas.

M_S
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re: Beware technology bearing gifts; turn off the light
M_S   8/15/2012 4:07:30 PM
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Regarding saving energy by using motion-sensing technology, I often see our outside lights turned on by animals running through the yard and even by wind blowing weeds. That doesn't save energy! As far as utilities not raising rates due to conservation, here in New Mexico we have had the main utility request rate hikes citing the reduced energy usage as the reason for requiring the increase.

lighthouse
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re: Beware technology bearing gifts; turn off the light
lighthouse   8/11/2012 5:01:05 AM
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(continued) Unfortunately, it is not only the night sky that we are missing, but the beauty of the night itself. That we like darkness is obvious by the fact that, if the light of a street lamp gets too much into our room, we close our window blinds in order to sleep; that we like to go to dimly lit restaurants and bars; and that we love the dim light of candles and fireplaces. And yet the tendency today is to flood our cities with artificial light and eliminate darkness altogether. In this respect, CFLs may have a bad environmental impact, because having to pay for the energy can stop us from using too much light; if CFLs are as cheap as it is advertised, this will lift this economic obstacle to light pollution, while the increased usage may mean that the true energy savings may be considerably less than 150 GW. In summary, all the fuss about CFLs is about a debatable 1% of alleged energy savings, accompanied by toxic waste, light pollution, and worse light quality."

lighthouse
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re: Beware technology bearing gifts; turn off the light
lighthouse   8/11/2012 5:00:47 AM
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Just came across this, from 2009, by a Greek philosopher (ok, scientist!) In his mention of "future use of CFLs", much surely applies to LEDs too... Antonis Christofides, "On banning the bulb" http://itia.ntua.gr/antonis/environment/on-banning-the-bulb/ Extract, following a section about supposed energy savings... "Interestingly, I doubt even that we are going to actually have these alleged savings of 150 GW, because people have the tendency to use as much energy as they can. If you replace your lamps with CFLs, you will probably be less careful about switching them off when you don't use them, because you know that they consume much less power. The phrase "lights will never go out" in Siemens' press release reflects a way of thinking that is dominant in society. We use more and more light, wanting our cities to be more and more luminous. As a result, we have destroyed the night sky, whose beauty has been occupying poets for millenia, whereas words like "twilight", that were once common in our vocabulary, today are strictly academic. (continued)

lighthouse
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re: Beware technology bearing gifts; turn off the light
lighthouse   8/11/2012 3:38:50 AM
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Ah, Peter is also the article author, missed that :-) Anyway, the point about turning off lights is well made, not least for Gov politicians telling others what bulbs they can use, while leaving their buildings lit up all night. Saw the milky way in the night sky recently out in the countryside. Breathtaking. Perseid meteor shower "peak over Britain Saturday 11th Aug" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/9467582/Perseid-meteor-shower-to-reach-peak-over-Britain.html ...if you can see it!

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