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any1
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CEO
Re: Better Jobs? Where?
any1   7/29/2013 3:05:25 PM
@mcgrathdylan - These freshly minted engineers at the credit union aren't bundling securties or overseeing mergers and acqusitions, they are just trying to identify what characteristics can be found that can predict certain behaviors of the credit union customers - like defaulting on a loan, not paying the full balance on their credit card, etc.  If the credit Union can identify which of their customers will have certain tendencies (based on data that the credit union has on their past behaviors, or demographics, or whatever other pertinent data they might have about them)  they can optimize their lending practices, or learn to attract certain kinds of new clients (more profitable ones), etc.  These engineers are mostly just following the money. This helps the credit union understand the dynamics of their internal money flow and where, why and how they are making or losing money, and what rates they should be charging  for various services.  The credit union has correctly assumed that it is much harder to teach complex data analysis skills than it is to teach a few relatively simple accounting concepts. 

mcgrathdylan
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Better Jobs? Where?
mcgrathdylan   7/29/2013 2:04:28 PM
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@any1- wow. that is very interesting. I am really surprised to hear your neighbor say that engineers make excellent financial analysts without any special training. I mean, engineers are smart and I don't doubt that they make good financial analysts and that they could do a lot of other things well, too. I just figured that with so many people going to school specifically to get a job like that, it's a bit of a surprise to see that a bank would consider hiring a freshly minted engineer who has not studied for that field. I guess I'm glad to know that an engineering graduate has that option open to him or her, but that sounds kind of ominous for the profession, if that avenue and presumably big money are open to them.

any1
User Rank
CEO
Re: Better Jobs? Where?
any1   7/29/2013 1:47:08 PM
Financial services (not just "Wall Street") are a much larger part of the US economy than they used to be, and they do employ a fair amount of technical talent.  My neighbor is a vice president at a credit union.  He tells me they are always hiring  software, computer hardware, network, and IT professionals.  In addition he found that engineers make excellent "financial analysts" (even with little to no special financial traning), and he hired three recent engineering graduates just for their ability to data mine and find trends in statistics of loan and credit card operations.  I also know a coworker whose son just graduated this May with a degree in business IT and started at $68,0000/yr.  Business IT is probably not classified as a STEM major, but it seems to pay a lot more than say, a BS in biology, that is considered STEM. 

RKab
User Rank
Rookie
former h1
RKab   7/29/2013 1:10:15 PM
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As a former h1, i think the phenomenon for hiring h1 and not new us born stem grads has myraid reasons. I am just making some points here:  1) competition for entry level jobs from abroad. in my f100 company, there were many entry-level people who were actually from east/south asia with over 5/7/10 years experience. they were willing to start at entry-level in the usa to get a start in this country, some for their children education etc. they are ok to stay there 2-5 years to get experience and then move on to a slightly higher position in another company. for a lot of them, US pay is comparable to far east -but a lot less work and better work culture and compared to south asia, pay is at least 60% higher. just the above makes it difficult for the entry level person here to compete.

2) The top 80% of the top 30 engg colleges always get recruited. Plus the grads from any univ with good contacts.  The outliers and the people in colleges below now who dont have many professional contacts have to compete with 1). The expereienced people from abroad trying for these jobs outnumber the grads from smaller colleges by at least 2:1.


3) Most companies have a bottleneck on the career ladder. poeple who should have retired have not because of hte economic conditions and healthcare fears. this trickles (actually it is a gushing stream) down and people who whould be senior are still at entry level - so the new college grad has to compete with them.  some companies force out senior people who then work in a lower level position in startups - positions which would have gone to a new college grad.


4) And how many companies now are really growing? Growth in terms of people in the USA? Very few - most jobs are created abroad. In fact,the tech industry is facing a 2nd wave of outsourcing led by smaller towns with lower income in the outsourced country.

5) Despite the claims otherwise, unless there is a control or limit on the poeple coming in or a limit on outsourcing, this trend is here to stay.

realtimeshary
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Freelancer
Re: Foreign engineers are willing to "pay" companies to sponsor them!
realtimeshary   7/29/2013 12:36:37 PM
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Another real factor, Most US raised readers are not aware aware that most European/East/West/ ex British colonies whose education is modelled on the UK O/A levels start thier Alzebra/calculus/physics edecution at age 13. so a larger pool ready for the challenges of modern STE, if they decide to go in the sciences. About 60 percent are exposed simple linear / quadratic equations by age 14.

realtimeshary
User Rank
Freelancer
Re: Where are those grads?
realtimeshary   7/29/2013 12:19:05 PM
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/appendix.htm#c2

The web site above by the NSF tabulates the undergrads and grads by hard numbers sliced diced many ways colleges / ethnicity etc. Not very hard for a think tank to cross - check and refute, but none can because it's correct and open information.

none of the posts here are from unemployed lamenting joblessness, but from employees lamenting salaries, and anti-protective trade in the labor market,(look at protectyive medical labor marlet - great for the docs, not the consumer) . Mine is an actual experience of an actual mid size busniess unable to hire due to lack of supply.

 

smartbost
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Rookie
Foreign engineers are willing to "pay" companies to sponsor them!
smartbost   7/29/2013 11:04:16 AM
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I know many young foreign engineers who will work for nothing (or next to notyhing) to get an American company to sponsor them. The legal cost is nothing. Once they have a green card, they can do as they please. There is no way that a STEM grad from an American school with $100K of student loans can match that! We are kidding ourselves if we look at the problem from a minscule angle. The problem is systemic and complex. US STEM students, as bright as they are, will end up with other jobs to pay teh bills while foreign grads with NO student loan (Engineering educxation is free in India, China, Europe, and Canada) will take the jobs for less money in order to gain access to a green card and supress the salaries. That explains the number PERFECTLY!!!

rick merritt
User Rank
Blogger
Conflicting numbers
rick merritt   7/28/2013 9:09:42 PM
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Thanks for pointing to these studies.

For as long as I have been with EE Times, management in electronics companies have claimed there's a lack of engineers and engineering groups have claimed management is filling positions with lower cost H1-B folks while domestic engineers go unemployed.

Getting to the bottom of the situation has been difficult due to conflicting numbers from different studies.

Bert22306
User Rank
CEO
Re: Senate's H1-B compromise
Bert22306   7/28/2013 7:46:40 PM
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"Heavy users of the H-1B program, such as H-1B dependent employers or H-1B skilled worker dependent employers, have additional obligations, such as offering the job to U.S. workers first and a prohibition on having more than 50 percent H-1B or L-1 workers in their workforce."

Who are these "heavy users"? Doesn't 50 percent sound awfully high in an economy with high unemployment? One always hears how Americans don't want to work at farm jobs that illegals and/or migrant workers take, but does this also apply to STEM jobs? Skepticism here.

I'd be interested in seeing a few actual examples of companies hiring STEM workers, where a full 50 percent of H1B visa holders in the work force makes good sense. There could just be a whole segment of the economy that I'm missing.

Susan Rambo
User Rank
Blogger
Senate's H1-B compromise
Susan Rambo   7/28/2013 6:48:15 PM
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Now that the U.S. Senate's bill has passed (S.744 passed June 27, 2013), next up is the House and then a conference committee, etc etc.. IEEE was against an earlier version of the Senate bill; the final bill may be more of a compromise, but IEEE on May 21 was still not pleased. See a summary of the bill here: search by "H-1B visa" to quickly find the passages. I wonder what's going to happen in the House.

The Immigration Policy Center has a good summary of the bill and what happens next.  From the Immigration Policy Center's website:
The bill raises the annual H-1B visa cap, raises H-1B wage requirements, and requires employers to make significant efforts to recruit U.S. workers. The current H-1B visa cap of 65,000 is replaced with a cap that fluctuates between 115,000 and 180,000 based on a market escalator formula that considers employer demand and unemployment data. The lowest level wage that must be paid to H-1B workers is raised by narrowing the range of wages that employers must pay H-1B workers. Employers are required to place mandatory ads and perform other good faith recruitment to find U.S. workers before hiring an H-1B worker. Employers cannot intentionally displace U.S. workers and must pay an additional fee to place an H-1B worker with another company. Heavy users of the H-1B program, such as H-1B dependent employers or H-1B skilled worker dependent employers, have additional obligations, such as offering the job to U.S. workers first and a prohibition on having more than 50 percent H-1B or L-1 workers in their workforce. The bill also makes it easier for H-1B workers to change employers and limits employers' ability to place L-1 workers with other employers.


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