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Many trucks still use Compressed Air Brakes(Pnuematically controlled -- Fail locked) and They usually use Diesel Engines with Mechanical Fuel Injection -- the Electronics are just too dicy to make 20K hrs of operation at high temperature -- the bits bake out of the Flash due to the charge leaking off of the floating gate -- Cars only run for 2K-10K hrs

Rookie

By everyone. Drive safely...while you still can!

Blogger

Goodbye Everyone -- have a GREAT weekend

Tom, that's interesting!

Blogger

have a greta weekend all, when it arrives 

Blogger

Junko:  I just saw an auto show in San Rafael, Calif of antique restored cars. They included a 1969 Pontiac, like the one that I drove cross-country in Dec. 1974 with a couple college friends in 47 hours.

Blogger

we'll see you all next week!

Blogger

thanks for chiming in. it was fun

Blogger

Max: Sure...I think I  know you'd buy the low-tech car if you could save eight grand

Blogger

well everyone, it has been enlightening but I believe we are out of time.

 

Blogger

because with all the complexity we are putting into a car and the difficulties to keep track of all the components...

Blogger

Not really sure what happened at SFO -- that is up to the NTSB to determine cause

Rookie

somebody in our community asked earlier today, if any of our modern cars (of our time) will be trotted out on a highway just like those antique cars made 100 years ago...
I thought that was really an astute observation

Blogger

@tom: ...it was a hypothetical question....

Do you want a hypothetical answer? :-)

Rick: An 19th Ave is now a triple-fine zone, I believe.  I will be you that Sen. Yee, who brought us the triple-fine plan, proposes an automated speeding fine for that particular street before the end of his term.

Blogger

In our area the stop light cameras were deemed illegal. They're still there, but all deactivated.

Blogger

@max, believe me I know. I'll say it again. I drive a 1976 vw van, and an early 200's minivan. the difference is mind bending.

Blogger

Junko: it was a hypothetical question....

Blogger

@Tom I got caught by one of those automated stop light monitors at 19th and Geary. The big flash goes off taking pix of my license plate and me with the F-bomb clearly on my lips.

Author

@Caleb: ...that truck still has a fully computerized ignition and brake system though!


True -- and in the scheme of things I'd just like to say that modern vhicles are incredibly reliable ... its' a bit of a shock when something fails to start -- as opposed to when I was a kid when it was more of a shock if my mother's car actually started :-)

there may be one without features INSIDE the cabin, but control systems will all be the same

Blogger

Is there a low tech Ford Focus?

 

Blogger

@wmwmurray: Wonder if a trucker could have been the cause of that recent accident with the Korean airliner at SFO

Author

Personally, if I could buy a high tech Ford Focus for $20k or a low-tech Ford Focus for, say, $12k, I would definitely go low-tech.  

Blogger

@Junko -- now you have me doubting myself -- I just did a search and found this article http://pingmag.jp/2008/03/13/taxi-lights/ but this is totally different -- maybe someone in Japan was having a joke with me when they told me about these lights

@Tom we have lots of those in the UK 

Blogger

A big problem at some airports is the Jammers some of the truckers use and leave on -- messing up the instrument approaches -  It will Jam the tracking an monitoring on the truck, but it also Jams the planes on final.

Rookie

Once again, I quote the great Bill Joy: "Technology is easy. People are hard."

Blogger

@max, that truck still has a fully computerized ignition and brake system though!

Blogger

Max:  In California, we have red-light cameras that basically convict you on the spot. We're likely to have speed monitors soon that will issue tickets for going over the speed limit (because, among other things, they'll generate a LOT of money for the nearly bankrupt cities).  And the Toll transponders on cars are now being used to bill for riding in toll lanes, too.

So I'm not sure we'll need the cars to auto-report speeding.

 

Blogger

@max, ha ha, cabs in Japan, I am talking about. I have never heard of it, even though I am from that country

Blogger

@Max: Crank windows, manual door locks. Takes me back to when I was a kid with an 8-track in my first car

Author

@Junko: ...are you sure about that? I don't believe it...

Am I sure about what? I'm making lots of different comments -- give me a clue :-)

@max that is where the MTBF and probability of success and correct design come in 

Blogger

cruise control? That's called "going down hill"

Blogger

LOL I regularly push near a 90 on my drive to work 

Blogger

@Caleb: So you have cruise control set for 59 mph ;-)

Author

@Max, are you sure about that? I don't believe it

Blogger

@Tom: Besides, gizmos cost money.  Low-tech cars are cheaper.

My truck (2006 Dodge RAM) doesn't have electric windows or central locking ... less things to go wrong... 

Someone told me this week as much as half the value added in a car these days is in electroncis and software

Author

Max that is a little worrying 

Blogger

if I go above 60 on the highway my vw van rattles pieces off, alerting the authorities

Blogger

@Tom, i hear what you are saying...but of course, if you are a carmaker, electronics is where all the differentiations you can make in your products

Blogger

@Adam: ...they would be connected to the internet of things they could self report when you are speeding...

In Japan the taxis have (or had when I was last there) lights on top -- if they went over the speed linit the lights flashed to tell the police to come and give them a ticket...

if you are going to feed false data to the device you would use an mcu, not another car. The vin data would be whatever you wanted it to be.

Blogger

I guess there are big civil liberty issues to as they would know exaclty where one has been 

Blogger

I hate to admit this about myself, but I think there are a goodly number of consumers like me:  I didn't trust power windows until the 80s because in the 70s, it seemed like they weren't working properly in half the cars that had them.  So I've got a bit of inner resistance to the idea of self-driving cars.   Besides, gizmos cost money.  Low-tech cars are cheaper.  

That may not be a popular thought at EET, but engineering about people as much as electronics, isn't it?

Blogger

My last company was quoting on those devices - with the ins. co. involved the level of security was daunting

Rookie

@Tonbo0 how hard is it to change the VIN, is it a one time only function (I have seen a few of those) but they get expensive as it means slight error and need to RTM

Blogger

@adam, i get it. good points

Blogger

@Tombo0, easily spoofed. If I can feed it obd2 data it shouldn't be a problem.

Blogger

actually, now that I think of it, it would be an easy task. I need one of these boxes to study.

Blogger

@junko they would be connected to the internet of things they could self report when you are speeding. Of course ou could hack a car to report someone elses number so they get the fine / points

Blogger

@Caleb - I think recording the VIN is the first thing those devices do

Rookie

or better yet, spoof clean driving for your own logging box.

Blogger

3G is more wide - spread in many places that are smaller cities and is even along the major highways -- but there are still places where text messages do not even go through

Rookie

caleb, there you go

Blogger

@adam, you mean cars as end points of the Internet of things?

Blogger

Adam, it would be a fun practical joke to steal someone's insurance logging device and run up insane driving habits on it.

Blogger

Junko, the thing is if it is for "minor" crimes who would beleive you had been hacked. 

Blogger

I'm more of an antique car guy myself, but I can appreciate some shiny tech.

Blogger

Adam, very good point

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I thought the display was rediculous. It is a pretty car otherwis. I rode in number #0001 and some trim was falling off.

Blogger

junko what about when there is the internet of things with cars it is easy to frame people for things via hacking. Say speeding etc

Blogger

It's too distracting to me

Blogger

what about geographical location of smart transportation systems? I think, as someone else already pointed out, rural america will come very late to the game.

Blogger

@caleb, don't you hate tesla's HUGE display?

Blogger

But of course, once a car starts talking to the infrastcture...there is another "car hacking" potential, right there

Blogger

I rode in a tesla and thought about the computer controlled aspects of it

Blogger

@Junko  So the intelligent transportation system is still an on-going project?

Author

speaking of smart infrastructure + dumb cars....that's actually a good idea, but of course, everyone is asking who is going to pay for it

Blogger

Have a good weekend Javi!

Blogger

Bye Javi (Garcia) -- hope you have a GREAT weekend

good observation tom. I know that I have two vehicles. One that I have an emotional attachment to, very much like you stated and one that I don't.

Blogger

Give me a few seconds -- I'll just hop into my time machine -- bounce forward 20 years -- then return to tell you what the future holds...


OMG!!! You wouldn't believe it!!! (but they said I couldn't tell anyone what  I'd seen)

Rick, those will come BEFORE self-driving cars

Blogger

I'm sorry, but I must go... have a great weekend!!

Blogger

In the US, where the car culture is SO strong, driving your own car is akin to an expression of liberty and free speech.  That human factor may be difficult to overcome here. Although I think the younger generation will move beyond that.

Blogger

Just like airplanes.... you can't have a pilot making a willy nilly decision -- because that might collide with another airplane!

Blogger

Whatever happened to the intelligent transportation nsystem George Leopold used to write about. Dumb cars attach to a smart highway.

Author

Give me a few seconds -- I'll just hop into my time machine -- bounce forward 20 years -- then return to tell you what the future holds ...

Junko: Yes!  We're already seeing how cars are warning drivers of things on the road -- like a neighboring car that is drifting into the lane.  And cars that "almost" park themselves. I think we'll see a steady increase in that sort of thing.

Blogger

you don't want to have human judgements intervened

Blogger

Self Driving is really hard to sell out in the bulk of rural america where there are no real traffic jams, and there is road construction in the summer and snow and ice in the winter

Rookie

One intersting thing I heard lately....self-driving cars will remain UNSAFE, unless all the cars on highway are self-driving cars!

Blogger

I think we'll see a public transportation revolution before we'll see widespread autonomous personal transport.

Blogger

@tom: Remember, most cities can't fix potholes adequately today.

Actually, "there's an app" for that -- in Biston they paid for a free app that you can download to your smartphone -- when you are in a car and you drive over a pothole, the app detects that signature acceleration profile and reports the GPS coordinates of the pothole back to the crew that comes out to fix them...

 

Before we get to a completely self-driving car, it's my understanding that there will be a lot of partially self-driving cars

Blogger

Junko:  legal will be huge. But right now, I don't even think people know what the legal questions might be.  Until they do, they can't start to resolve them.

Blogger

there are so many problems that keep us back. Environment variables, human drivers, etc.

Blogger

@Junko: I agree legal issues will be huge. This country is a liability Hell

Author

max, a very long time, if ever

Blogger

At the NY Worlds Fair in 1964, the GM exhibit showed the highways full of self-driving cars. I believe they predicted that by 2000. 49 years later....still waiting...

 

Blogger

i agree, Tom. But I think legal issues a white elephant nobody is actively talking about yet

Blogger

How long do you think it will be before we have self-driving cars -- realistically?

We already have self-parking capability -- plus blind spot and lane departure detection...

Hmmm i wonder if there is a case for more security aspects like happen on military systems 

Blogger

that is a good question though. I wonder if there will be some huge court case that will become a standard name dealing with autonomous vehicle collisions.

Blogger

But of course, who wants to hack into your own car, right?

Blogger

Self-driving cars, as one commenter noted yesterday, could be 20-50 years away.  There are just far too many considerations beyond electronics.  Remember, most cities can't fix potholes adequately today. 

Blogger

the more gadgets you have the easier it is to hack something of yours

Rookie

well, that's what car companies hope...

Blogger

Self-driving cars need self-paying insurance. Bill the car maker?

Author

Did you see the "Flying Cat" in my Fuzzy Logic column http://bit.ly/19gYuB3

I keep on thinking of doing something like this -- but I want a mouse riding the cat -- sitting on its neck flourishing a whip and wearing little leather goggles and a white silk scarf

Junko, I think in the short term the person who is sitting in the "failsafe" seat will take immedate responsiblitiy

then they'll sue the company that made it

Blogger

My suspicion is that legal issues will definitely hinder the progress of self-driving car deployment...

Blogger

I had someone hacking the Facebook messaging on my phone -- Had to uninstall it

Rookie

I am just thinking out loud here..

Blogger

I'm wondering about hijacking other transports too. If you have followed the news, some days ago a train crashed in Spain and a lot of people got killed. Despite the fact that the clues points to an human failure, the latest news make me feel that it wouldn't be so difficult to "cyber-attack" a train...

Blogger

I really would like to get a drone to play with -- not sure whether to get the Parrot quad-copter -- or whether to go for a hexa-copter or an octo-copter...

Any recommendations?

true...but when an accident happens between two self-driving cars, who can sue whom?

Blogger

what do you mean Junko?

Blogger

hacking entry to cars is big though.

Blogger

Somebody mentioned earlier in this conversation, car hacking is going to be important issues when the car industry is talking about self-driving car...I am wondering if anyone knows about legal aspects of the whole thing

Blogger

Caleb -- I love that Taser Drone!!!

and the phones are open for communication!

Blogger

Actually, there was another Freescale guy who pointed to me -- the possibility of iPhone inside the car could give away Apple ID/credit card number to others....

Blogger

people are already carying all their personal data on their phones

Blogger

And then there is the fact that some cars are worth more in rare parts than as a whole on the black market

Rookie

I think phones will be a bigger issue.

Blogger

You're welcome, Garcia

Blogger

it is perfectly legal to fly a drone below a certain altitude.

Blogger

Did you see my blog about drones delivering pizzas http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1287421 ... now you can see the true potential horror of someone hijacking such a drone

seriously, how to secure all the hardware and software inside a car is going to be a story for the next decades...mind you, some measures -- specs and guidelines -- are already taken

Blogger

It sparked a lot of good conversation about legality.

you can't see the link below! Here, click this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYdNnzAgScY

Blogger

@Junko: ...remember "smart cards on wheels"?

I missed that one, but I've just checked it for review -- I'm pretty interested in Freescale automotive products, thanks a lot!!

Blogger

@max what about the asymetric warface aspect of it in a wide city area 

Blogger

wow, way to go, caleb

Blogger

I made mine into a tazer delivery device.

Blogger

I have a parrot drone

Blogger

I am surprised that they have not been sued yet...

Blogger

@Rick it came as a surpise to me yesterday someone sent me a link I will see if I can find it hang on 

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/print/volume-24/issue-7/special-report/uav-command-control-communications.html

Blogger

@kaleb: ...the percentage of people who will carry out premeditated homicide is miniscule, especially if it involves learning to hack a system.

But what about the folks who hire themselves out to "remove" people...

I think about those toy drones by Parrot, French company

Blogger

Max...just saying...

Blogger

once you bring in your own iPhone with your apple ID number

Blogger

@Adam: No I didnt know drones use LTE. Hackable from your smartphone then I imagine

Author

@Junko: ...you don't have anyone you want dead?...

Like I'm going to give you his name here :-)

Garcia, definitely a credit card number...remember "smart cards on wheels"?

Blogger

I'm not saying car companies shouldn't protecta against it, but there's a limit. Why not bulletproof glass? Why not armored brake lines? Never flat tires? Speed restrictors?

Blogger

You need some other equipment besides the android and the app -- and then someone in the cockpit must "Push the Button" to accept the bogus information --

An older system that is secondary to other methods - and virtually obsolete 

Rookie

adam, i know, it's been done, but they will be able to get MORE information once more electronics inside a car

Blogger

@Caleb: Like tracking information?

Or credit card numbers, if the car includes RFID payment systems for highway tolls

Blogger

Rick you know the drones use LTE for comms right ?

Blogger

@Junko, the percentage of people who will carry out premeditated homicide is miniscule, especially if it involves learning to hack a system.

Blogger

Junko in the UK insurance comapnies offer a black box which tracks driving habits and prices accordingly 

Blogger

Imagine hacks of commercial drones once those start flying in the US

Author

@Adam: ...just got back from walking the hounds and now sat with a beer...

Oooh, Beer....

Garcia, that is so true

What if your car insurance companies get ahold of data -- on how you drive?

Blogger

@garcia-Lasheras. Like tracking information?

Blogger

Let's face it. The more electronics are involved, the more ways there are of hacking a car. There are now car thieves walking down the street with home-made black boxes that they click until they find a car that opens. Another click starts the engine and releases the steering lock.  Much easier than using a jimmy to open the door and rewiring the ignitiion switch.

Blogger

@Javi (Garcias): ... I read here -- in the EETimes-- that somebody had developed...

Well, if you read it here in EE Times it must be true (especially if I wrote it :-)

you don't have anyone you want dead?

Blogger

@Caleb: but aqs the car becomes smarter, there will be a lot of sensible information on its systems

Blogger

Max just got back from walking the hounds and now sat with a beer

Blogger

you can harm someone

Blogger

When was the last time you saw a computer hack that only destroyed data?

Blogger

Garcia How do they do that?

one would imagine the secure systems have an air gap

Blogger

Hi Adam -- thanks for joining us -- it's evening in the UK -- you must be about ready to head home and/or head out for the evening...

what do you get out of hacking a car? only a single malicious outcome. No scraping credit card data, no zombie car networks. There's just not enough ROI

Blogger

JKaplanIP: Yes, but I read here -- in the EETimes-- that somebody had developed an Android APP that is able to hijack an airplane

Blogger

but that does not justify for not taking any actions to beef up security inside a car

Blogger

No comment on the airline industry

Rookie

that and the ROI

 

Blogger

@JKaplan: cyber hijacking a plane? Any stories of that?

 

Author

Caleb: Smart ... what's the motive?

Blogger

the difficulty of physical access (to a car) and the expert knowledge that may be required to car hacking are always two reasons carmakers cite....that the risk of car hacking is minimum

Blogger

@rick, must have been british.

Blogger

@Rick: Future headlines from "Man bites dog" to "Car hijacks driver" ... we certainly do live in exciting times :-)

But seriously, can we learn something from the airline industry?  Haven't they had to grapple with the possibility of cyber hyjacking for years?

I had a car stolen once when I left it unblocked and they made a fake key. The car was recovered but the electrical system was screwy aftwards. Such a complex system that once you mess with it, you can't get all the pieces in lace again.

Author

@Max: you make me feel like a superhero ;-)

Blogger

wmwmurray, why did someone go through so much effort?

Blogger

You work on anything worth quite a bit of money you are potentially at risk

Rookie

WMMurray:  Yikes. That sounds like something out of detective novel.

Blogger

@wmwmurray: Wow, quite a story!

Author

I need to see the paper again I guess. I may be way wrong.

Blogger

Everyone -- Javi is the guy with the torn pants and fake Tattoo from my No Bull! blog

wmwmurray01, that's a scary story

Blogger

I thought they only got to read some system data and change a display

Blogger

But they didn't get access to the control systems did they?

 

Blogger

My car go hacked right before an ICE storm up north -- they got the VIN, got a key cut, took the car while we were sleeping from under the bedroom window, and re-flashed the ABS so it did not work

I avoided serious damage and injury in the accident by downshifting

Rookie

Junko: Yes, they really got into it.  Great conversation!

Blogger

ssavage920, turns out, is one of the authors of 2011 paper.. according to wiki,

Stefan Savage (born 1969) is an American computer science researcher, currently a Professor in the Systems and Networking Group at the University of California San Diego

Blogger

@JKaplan: Yes a future headline in the era of self-driving cars: Car hijacks driver

Author

Hi Javi (Garcia) -- Hi Tom

that excuse will never work tom.

Blogger

I don't know if you guys caught on...but yesterday, there was a great conversation between Bert and ssavage920 on my car hacking story

Blogger

Hi Gang....sorry I'm late. My car was hacked on the way over...

 

Blogger

Rick, that's correct

that was done in the 2011 paper

 

Blogger

then again, it is a vw bus, so I could probably catch you on foot if you stole it.

Blogger

I think the future is closer than even we all think -- it won;t be long before cars have incredibly sophisticated layers of operating system -- with embedded speach and embedded visioon -- maybe a sort of AI (Artificial Intellegence) ... and the more sophisticated it gets, the more potential there is for a hacker to worm his/her way in...

>

"remote" hacking has been already proven. It's done. It's real

 

Using an "implanted" device, or an unmodified car?

 

Manager

especially mine, it was made in 1976

Blogger

I heard some hacks get in via Bluetooth, one even through a bogus CD

Author

Does that mean your car is at risk? No. Chances are low

Blogger

The issue is that none of the cars we see on the market have all the security measures the chip companies are talking about -- just not yet

Blogger

The new infineon buses run encrypted to defeat this to a degree

Rookie

Toyota and Ford, yes

Blogger

Car theft -- get to the bus on the mirror and send the codes to unlock and start!

Rookie

yes, they proved that they can actually skid your car, etc.

Blogger

I guess that is true junko. I was a little let down by the news coverage of that prius I think.

Blogger

@JKaplanIP: I love Portland -- a wonderful city in the summer for quaffing a coffee in a street cafe and watching the world go by...

True, but has anyone accessed these busses for anything yet?

Blogger

Well, just to be on the record, if you ever read the 2011 paper by Univ. of Washington and UC-San Diego, "remote" hacking has been already proven. It's done. It's real

Blogger

You do not even need access to the inside -- things like mirrors and lights and suspension have buses these days --

 

Rookie

One could always break into a car, install a wireless OBD II device, and proceed to create havoc...

Manager

I did not, I'll have to go look

Blogger

I can just imagine a news story, in 2025, when someone is hijacked, in his/her own car, by a cyber-carjacking!

however, they could leave behind something like a raspberry PI with a wireless card and do some of this stuff remotely

Blogger

Caleb, did you read the comments from ssavage920 to your comment?

 

Blogger

Re hacking cars -- I think the problems become greater the more sophisticated the cars get. If all you can do is hack someone's car radio ... well, it's a pain, but not life-threatening.

But suppose your car can drive itself -- so you climb in and say "drive m eto work" then you sit back and read a book ... now if someone hacks the car, they could basically kidnap you!!!

the guys who took over the controls had physical access to the inside of the car. Someone could just as easily poke a hole in your brake line

Blogger

Did anyone hear the car hacking talks at Black Hat? The presenters were also on NPR's Science Frioday last week.

Author

I don't think it is a huge concern untill external communications are happening

Blogger

Still slogging away with the sinuses -- they are a give and take battle

 

Rookie

Yes. Much of the media coverage was focused on the recent demo done by two researchers

Blogger

I'm from the Portland, OR area

people are breaking into them, and breaking the control systems.

Blogger

Seems the car hacking issue will become incredibly important as self-driving cars become more common

So, car hacking is everywhere the last couple weeks

 

Blogger

It looks like people are slowing gathering...

Blogger

Hi William -- how are things with you?

Hi JKaplanIP -- where abouts in the world do you hail from?

Howdy everyone!

 

Blogger

Oh, hello, JKaplanIP!

Blogger

How are you doing, Max?

Blogger

Hi Caleb -- Hi Junko

(What's a nice boy like me doing in a place like this?)

Let's see who else are out there...

Blogger

@Duane: This is a great subject, but I'm sorry that I won't be able to attend.

Well, thanks for attending loing enough to say that you won;t be able to attend LOL

Welcome! We're just about to get started. On the topic of Car hacking, Junko Yoshida just posted another article where TI outlines the common threats to an automobile.

Blogger

This is a great subject, but I'm sorry that I won't be able to attend.

Blogger

The "EE Times Week In Review" is a live online chat about what's been happening in electronics and engineering and what you thought about it all, from hard news to the weird and wonderful.

This week's chat will take place on Friday, August 9, 2013, commencing at 10:00 a.m. Pacific Time / 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

To kick things off, we'll start by consider two columns that have sparked a lot of interest over the past few days, both relating to the topic of hacking cars, but any other columns or "happenings" are open to debate...



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