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TarraTarra!
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CEO
Re: Dealing with the slowdown
TarraTarra!   12/15/2013 6:02:01 AM
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@rick

"In the future they may not be able to charge the premiumjs for 28nm, 16nm they charge today, but then they will not have the enormous expenditures of new multibillion dollar fabs every 18 monthys either. The biz dynamics will shift radically.

Imagine what that might  be like!"

 

Yes - what egalitarian dreams! I can only imagine the large swaths of un-washed masses storming the bastile. Cake (FinFet) for everyone! 

Susan Rambo
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Re: Moore's Law
Susan Rambo   12/13/2013 2:34:48 PM
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Now people are fighting over who predicted Moore's Law would end? It would be good to have a timeline of predictions, just for fun.

zewde yeraswork
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Moore's Law
zewde yeraswork   12/13/2013 1:29:54 PM
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I just spoke with a technologist at a leading OEM and server design company who says Moore's Law ended about ten years and claims to have predicted the end about twelve years ago...whether or not that's true, it seems everyone is finally accepting that the days of packing more transistors and getting a denser and denser product are nearing an end--albeit slowly....

moloned
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Re: Life After Moore's Law
moloned   12/13/2013 7:47:19 AM
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3D is interesting but even TSVs are too expensive for many applications

Most volume applications use die-stacking in package and wire-bonding for stacked DDR

Going 3D rather than TSV or wire-bonding means you have a huge heat problem and this may prove as much of a limitation as the number of Si atoms in the channel

Samueli who is a brilliant engineer is quite correct that 28nm will be the most cost effective node and few applications will be able to justify going below

For those that do the volumes will have to be huge and the platforms will be programmable so essentially you'll be talking about a commodity SoC business a bit like DRAM is today

Bill Dally's work on ELM at Stanford and now on Echelon at Nvidia charts how this will be possible and programmable solutions will get to between 1.5 and 3x ASIC

The big issue will be how to program these chips efficiently to approach these limits

As proebsting's law notes you can't rely on compilers to deliver the benefits

So SW engineers will have to work for a living instead of relying on Moore's law for a free ride

chipmonk0
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CEO
Re: Dealing with the slowdown
chipmonk0   12/13/2013 12:16:17 AM
as the R&D cost incurred by the leading Foundry to keep up with Intel shoots up, that cost is bound to get xferred to their Fabless customers, cutting into their huge margin up to now. this is what I had meant as "the free lunch is over for the fabless wonders"

Or_Bach
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Life After Moore's Law
Or_Bach   12/12/2013 6:10:36 PM
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1 saves
Yes, it is clear thar cost per transistor is not going down with dimension scaling, but new type of scaling - monolithic 3D - would keep Moore's Law in the near future. Samsung is already doing so with 3D NAND and other are moving toward monolithic 3D just as well. The first adaption of monolithic 3D is in the memory segment, and other segment will follow, as we just recently learned whith Qualcomm sign up with CEA Leti. In a recent Blog we articulated why Scaling makes monolithic 3D IC practical http://electroiq.com/blog/2013/10/scaling-makes-monolithic-3d-ic-practical/, and in our site we present the cost and othe benifits the monolithic 3d technology provides - http://www.monolithic3d.com/3d-ic-edge1.html

rick merritt
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Author
Re: Dealing with the slowdown
rick merritt   12/12/2013 5:55:14 PM
@Tarra: Fabs like TSMC are just starting to ramp up really expensive (profitable) 3-D stacking processes.

In the future they may not be able to charge the premiumjs for 28nm, 16nm they charge today, but then they will not have the enormous expenditures of new multibillion dollar fabs every 18 monthys either. The biz dynamics will shift radically.

Imagine what that might  be like!

junko.yoshida
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Blogger
Re: Dealing with the slowdown
junko.yoshida   12/12/2013 3:41:50 PM
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@TarraTarra! I think you're right. It will be problematic for foundries who need new nodes to keep differentiating their services and charge premiums..

TarraTarra!
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CEO
Re: design
TarraTarra!   12/12/2013 3:05:42 PM
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This does level the playing field a bit. Design innovation is where companies will have to distinguish themselves. The best, most efficient design shall survive rather than the design on the latest process node.

TarraTarra!
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CEO
Re: Dealing with the slowdown
TarraTarra!   12/12/2013 3:02:45 PM
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Isnt it more of a problem for the companies with fabs? Process node advantage will not provide the benefits as before and the cost of sustaining new fabs increasing.

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