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_hm
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Should wait for election?
_hm   2/4/2014 6:39:41 PM
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I suggest this decision should wait for general election. This is safe becasue, if government changes after election, this decision will become controversial and vendors may not be happy with Indian government. Like that happen to Enron.

 

lidation
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Freelancer
What fabs?
lidation   2/4/2014 9:16:13 PM
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What fabs? After reading the article several times I still have no idea of what fabs this is all about. Is it a 300mm? 200mm? Logic? Memory? Packaging? What is the budget? $50billion? $20billion? $100million? That makes a huge difference in attracting people's attention, or not.

junko.yoshida
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Blogger
Re: What fabs?
junko.yoshida   2/4/2014 10:39:02 PM
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Agreed. India fabs have been an on-going story for us, and it is a BIG dream that's been taking forever to materialize in Indai.

What they will exactly make at which node remains sketchy, but products such as smart cards have been mentioned before as a potential driver for local fabs in India.

prabhakar_deosthali
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CEO
Re:
prabhakar_deosthali   2/5/2014 5:36:46 AM
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This India Fab story updates come after so much gap that we have to strain our memory or refer to the old blogs to refresh ourselves on this issue.

Such is the slow pace of the Indian decision making that , it is doubtful whether such fabs will become a reality in the near future.

 

zewde yeraswork
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Re:
zewde yeraswork   2/5/2014 9:40:49 AM
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It has been a while since this has been in the works, and the details remain few and far between. Still, the creation of fabs for semiconductors in this part of the world represent a seminal moment in their emergence as true competitors to the United States and the few other countries that produce semiconductors to this point.

chipmonk0
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CEO
Ignorance and Arrogance rules together in India Fab decision
chipmonk0   2/5/2014 10:03:07 AM
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They have a Trade / Lobby group over there calling itself grandly the Indian Semiconductor Association and has been pushing for CMOS logic Fabs now for 7 or 8 years. Doubtful if a single one of the members have ever seen the insides of a Fab or have any inkling of Device Physics. At best some are just surplus Programmers, be it Embedded or higher level or EDA vendors focused on Logic / Processors. But most of them are just salesmen working for various overseas chip companies.

Their argument for pushing for a multi-billion dollar CMOS Foundry ( actually 2 ) has been that it will give Indian chip design companies an opportunity to have their designs fabbed in India itself and thus the nation would keep a larger part of the revenue. But are there really any Fabless chip companies in India that can create business for these multi-billion $ CMOS Foundries ?

All that India now has are a large no. of international semiconductor companies who get just small bits of their chip designs done there. Unlike Taiwan ( MediaTek ) or even China ( Spreadturm ) India has NO independent companies who can design a whole SoC.  So where are they going to get proven designs with no IP issues to fill the domestic Fabs ? Instead of first promoting a few domestic chip design companies in India that would probably cost no more than 100s of million $ ( incl. making sure that they are on the ball by getting the designs turned into Si at TSMC etc. and then tested ) the Govt. over there seem to be bent on blowing several billion $ to subsidize old node ( 65 nm and older ) Fabs !

Have they not researched first SMIC and other Chinese Foundries that were started almost 15 years ago w/ no in-house R&D but with plans to jump to 90 nm DRAM based on imported technologies ? Even though the Chinese Govt. has enough muscle to favor local mfr. and China now has several Fabless Co.s to generate business, these Foundries have struggled and had to be bailed out repeatedly with billions in new loans.

The dilemma of new Fabs / Foundries that start with no technical expertise of their own is thus : even if they get Govt. support ( in this case $2 to 3 billion ) and start by licensing technology at an old node ( the talk is 65 nm or older ) it still takes them 4 to 5 years to absorb that old process and they never manage to make enough profit to qualify for a loan ( another $3 to 4 billion ) to upgrade to the next / more profitable node ( while the leading edge / most profitable node has perhaps already moved 3 to 4 generations ahead ). Without a huge bail-out ( e,g. by the Govt. ) to leapfrog to the leading edge, it becomes a slow but inevitable slog to shut-down.

One would have thought that at least in India they would have known all about WHITE ELEPHANTS !! 

JimMcGregor
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Re: Ignorance and Arrogance rules together in India Fab decision
JimMcGregor   2/5/2014 11:11:36 AM
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I agree. This still seems like a dream. Without a commitment by a major IDM or foundry to build and operate the fab, this is likely little more that political posturing.

stippu
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Re: Ignorance and Arrogance rules together in India Fab decision
stippu   2/7/2014 12:05:30 PM
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Just been reading and trying to get a perspective on the interaction - but the only thing i can come up with is that we all can agree to disagree.

Some consider the fab in India  a BIG dream and some think it might be nightmare - but then you should realise India is huge country with its own set of political issues. And, there are people for the fab and there are people against it - not just among our EETimes readers but in the industry itself.

But lets not be so negative about it. It could be a success or it might flop and down its shutters - but it is at least a  step forward.  

It is estimated that by 2020 India will be importing electronics product worth $300 billion, which will be more than the value of its oil imports.The govt realises it needs to act now to avoid a situation where it would face difficulties in financing these imports. It feels that India should have manufacturing facilities which result in a balanced trade in electronics products and are become a part of global supply chain. And it has taken 2 years to come to this decision.

No doubt there is delayi. there is corruption. there is lobbying but name one country where there is no lobbying.

India is huge, If you just take one dimension, say languages - there are about 180 languages with 544 dialects. Forget about the villages and all that. Trying to manoeuvre through all that and different types of political parties, is not a joke. But somehow, things go on here.

Twenty years back, it took us almost a year to get a telephone connection. Now, it is just a day or two. And look at the mobile user base - 

India's mobile phone customer base rose 0.7 percent, or a net 5.7 million, in November to 881.13 million.By comparison, China, the world's biggest mobile phone market, reported a 0.5 percent monthly rise in mobile
subscribers to 1.23 billion as of end-December.

Things a moving.. there are a good number of good people trying to make things work in India and at the same time there are a good number of bad people trying to pull the whole thing done. 

Like one reader said, he will believe it only when the ground breaking ceremony happens. Believe it or not, I do too. 

India is a strange country - and incredible things happen here. Incrediibly good and incredibly bad too.. But thats India's DNA. Forces of dark and light complement each other.

Lets give it abbout 10 years from the day the building starts.

GSMD explains a lot of things.. thanks.

Also someone was asking which process nodes - all that the company's spokesperson says is from 90-60-45 nm. And, they will change accordingly because the technology provider has not put into clauses against change.

 

 

 

 

stippu
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Ignorance and Arrogance rules together in India Fab decision
stippu   2/7/2014 12:05:36 PM
NO RATINGS
Just been reading and trying to get a perspective on the interaction - but the only thing i can come up with is that we all can agree to disagree.

Some consider the fab in India  a BIG dream and some think it might be nightmare - but then you should realise India is huge country with its own set of political issues. And, there are people for the fab and there are people against it - not just among our EETimes readers but in the industry itself.

But lets not be so negative about it. It could be a success or it might flop and down its shutters - but it is at least a  step forward.  

It is estimated that by 2020 India will be importing electronics product worth $300 billion, which will be more than the value of its oil imports.The govt realises it needs to act now to avoid a situation where it would face difficulties in financing these imports. It feels that India should have manufacturing facilities which result in a balanced trade in electronics products and are become a part of global supply chain. And it has taken 2 years to come to this decision.

No doubt there is delayi. there is corruption. there is lobbying but name one country where there is no lobbying.

India is huge, If you just take one dimension, say languages - there are about 180 languages with 544 dialects. Forget about the villages and all that. Trying to manoeuvre through all that and different types of political parties, is not a joke. But somehow, things go on here.

Twenty years back, it took us almost a year to get a telephone connection. Now, it is just a day or two. And look at the mobile user base - 

India's mobile phone customer base rose 0.7 percent, or a net 5.7 million, in November to 881.13 million.By comparison, China, the world's biggest mobile phone market, reported a 0.5 percent monthly rise in mobile
subscribers to 1.23 billion as of end-December.

Things a moving.. there are a good number of good people trying to make things work in India and at the same time there are a good number of bad people trying to pull the whole thing done. 

Like one reader said, he will believe it only when the ground breaking ceremony happens. Believe it or not, I do too. 

India is a strange country - and incredible things happen here. Incrediibly good and incredibly bad too.. But thats India's DNA. Forces of dark and light complement each other.

Lets give it abbout 10 years from the day the building starts.

GSMD explains a lot of things.. thanks.

Also someone was asking which process nodes - all that the company's spokesperson says is from 90-60-45 nm. And, they will change accordingly because the technology provider has not put into clauses against change.

 

 

 

 

stippu
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Ignorance and Arrogance rules together in India Fab decision
stippu   2/7/2014 12:05:41 PM
NO RATINGS
Just been reading and trying to get a perspective on the interaction - but the only thing i can come up with is that we all can agree to disagree.

Some consider the fab in India  a BIG dream and some think it might be nightmare - but then you should realise India is huge country with its own set of political issues. And, there are people for the fab and there are people against it - not just among our EETimes readers but in the industry itself.

But lets not be so negative about it. It could be a success or it might flop and down its shutters - but it is at least a  step forward.  

It is estimated that by 2020 India will be importing electronics product worth $300 billion, which will be more than the value of its oil imports.The govt realises it needs to act now to avoid a situation where it would face difficulties in financing these imports. It feels that India should have manufacturing facilities which result in a balanced trade in electronics products and are become a part of global supply chain. And it has taken 2 years to come to this decision.

No doubt there is delayi. there is corruption. there is lobbying but name one country where there is no lobbying.

India is huge, If you just take one dimension, say languages - there are about 180 languages with 544 dialects. Forget about the villages and all that. Trying to manoeuvre through all that and different types of political parties, is not a joke. But somehow, things go on here.

Twenty years back, it took us almost a year to get a telephone connection. Now, it is just a day or two. And look at the mobile user base - 

India's mobile phone customer base rose 0.7 percent, or a net 5.7 million, in November to 881.13 million.By comparison, China, the world's biggest mobile phone market, reported a 0.5 percent monthly rise in mobile
subscribers to 1.23 billion as of end-December.

Things a moving.. there are a good number of good people trying to make things work in India and at the same time there are a good number of bad people trying to pull the whole thing done. 

Like one reader said, he will believe it only when the ground breaking ceremony happens. Believe it or not, I do too. 

India is a strange country - and incredible things happen here. Incrediibly good and incredibly bad too.. But thats India's DNA. Forces of dark and light complement each other.

Lets give it abbout 10 years from the day the building starts.

GSMD explains a lot of things.. thanks.

Also someone was asking which process nodes - all that the company's spokesperson says is from 90-60-45 nm. And, they will change accordingly because the technology provider has not put into clauses against change.

 

 

 

 

chipmonk0
User Rank
CEO
Re: Ignorance and Arrogance rules together in India Fab decision
chipmonk0   2/7/2014 5:04:00 PM
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@stippu : if you attended the IESA summit earlier this week then can you please report on the announcements & discussions ( verbatim, as much as possible ) there related to these Fabs.

DMcCunney
User Rank
CEO
Wake me when it happens
DMcCunney   2/5/2014 11:36:28 AM
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I will believe this when I hear of ground being broken, serious construction taking place, and people stepping forward to run the fabs with commitments from customers in hand to buy what the fab produces.

As others have mentioned, this sounds like pre-election political posturing.

escher
User Rank
Rookie
All sound and fury, signifying nothing
escher   2/5/2014 9:20:05 PM
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EE Times should stop wasting its money and website space on this story - not going to happen.

Sakthidaran, R.T.
User Rank
Rookie
Re: Should wait for election?
Sakthidaran, R.T.   2/6/2014 4:38:48 AM
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1 saves
I think TATA, HCL and WIPRO would be better Indian Partners for this venture for the following reasons:
  1. All of them have exposure to electronics goods manufacturing.
  2. They are financially sound and doing B$ business.
  3. They also have BUs that can offer value added services in the area of EDA.
  4. They offices are scattered globally offering easy international presense.

IBM tie-up is good only upto construction of plant and to some extent erection of auxiliary plant equipments. They can be involved in civil maintenance work. They can not certainly contribute in the knowledge field. This tie-up means that IBM is a solo owner and Jaiprakash Ind meets the bidding requirements.

R.T.Sakthidaran

chipmonk0
User Rank
CEO
Re: A meaningful discussion is sorely needed
chipmonk0   2/6/2014 12:14:39 PM
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The poster is obviously not familiar with the technical & economic challenges of making Wafer Fabs successful. I will venture to guess that is probably true in general among the boosters and policymakers behind the Fab decision in India as well. Starting Fabs in the absence of a competent domestic systems design / manufacturing industry is unfortunately akin to building Castles in the Air. It would be a waste of resources and won't save a bit of foreign exchange. Only the Fab tool vendors will come out ahead. Read my earlier post to comprehend the issues.

chipmonk0
User Rank
CEO
Re: A meaningful discussion is sorely needed
chipmonk0   2/7/2014 1:56:34 AM
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the statement " ... taping out parts since the late 90s. .. " once again exposes the pathetic ignorance and arogance about Wafer Fabs among the johnny come lately low-rent programmers ( because thats what most of them are ) of Bangalore that is behind this desire and decision to start CMOS Fabs in India with no prior investment in Labs and staff. If one thinks that knowing Design Rules is all it takes to process wafers at high yield or knowing SPICE simulation of a transistor is all that it takes to design the next generation then they are in for a nasty surprise. To do these things well you need about 150 PhDs in Solid State Physics, Materials Science, Chemistry etc. not just EEs conversant with EDA software or Test. One big reason why there is no Silicon left in Silicon Valley ( except Intel ) is that the EEs who formed the majority in most Semiconductor Co.s in the Valley could not cope with Moore's Law as the going got tough since the late '80s, had to abandon their Fabs and run to TSMC.



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