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Hi Tom-ii, you can still post what you're working on.

Blogger

well...  I guess I was late to the party...

 

drats...

Blogger

Bye duane, Max. good luck with that Kickstarter project

Staff

See you all next time -- have a GREAT weekend!!!

Where does the time go?

 

My, the time did fly by didnt it?

Staff

well folks, it has been fun, but I gotta run!

Blogger

@All great chatting a gain but Mrs Crusty says it  is time to do the plate washing BYE

CEO

@duane. that is a big swing. The proto boards I found range from $5 to $15, so if yours is much more than about $20 I would think it wouldn't have much of a market. Even with the fancy connectors. And if it becomes cheaper to buy a new Arduino rather than a proto board, then folks will do what Max described.

Staff

@Max: "it would be easier to build different projects on different proto-shields and then just swap them in and out on the Arduino"

You hve really designed your project in a smart way -- and you sound like a marketing guy too. LOL

Blogger

@Duane: Unpopulated boards might sell well?

CEO

@rich, people combine different spectrums for targeting what coral like.

Blogger

@rich, LEDs are much more power efficient. heat is still an issue though, considering you may be working with ~100 watts of LEDs.


@crusty, flow is needed, cyclic flow is only a fun bonus.

Blogger

LEDs put out spectral lines, not broadband, we see white because of the way our eyes work. I wonder how the marine creatures would react

Staff

Sorry - I got a phone call. Rich - I don't have all of the prices for the components yet, so I don't have a price point yet. The connectors can range from less than a dollar a piece to around five each, so that's a big uncertainty at the moment.

Blogger

@Caleb: I wondered as I used to look after sea anenomies and they needed a tide to keep well.

CEO

@Javi: If you need only a bunch of them, why would you want to manufacture your own PCBs?

In fact Duane spotted something (a selling point) that I'd missed -- I thought that our proto-shields might be useful in an educational role because they woudl allow multiple students to share one Arduino.

Duane noted that he often has multiple projects on the go, and that it's a pain swapping things in and out, to the extent that in the past he's bought additional Arduinos (as have I), and that it would be easier to build different projects on different proto-shields and then just swap them in and out on the Arduino... 

I assume you're using LEDs to avoid heating the water

Staff

@rich, the intensity on the water surface creates the rippling. programmable light cycles are popular, but increase the cost

Blogger

some people simulate tides, but no, it is not necessary.

 

Blogger

Or perhaps give it a diurnal cycle, with sunrise and set. and maybe program in rippling of the lights to simulate the refraction from waves...

Staff

@Max: In your project, only advantages come with being open ;-)

Blogger

@Caleb: do you have to simulate tides in a salt water aquarium?

CEO

@Caleb: a salt water aquarium with live coral in it. It requires incredibly intense lighting

Oooh -- I'd love to see one of those...

Caleb, make it color controllable so you can adjust the lighting to correspond to various depths. Might make it more marketable

Staff

@Max: "in realiity most people just want to buy the boards and get on with their projects"

Yes, and this is even more real when talking about a proto board. If you need only a bunch of them, why would you want to manufacture your own PCBs?

Blogger

@Caleb: I just don't know if I could make enough money from selling them to make it worth my time

Like Duane says, that's one of the advantages of a Kickstarter project -- it let's you gauge the interest and get the money oin before you commit to buying anything.

a salt water aquarium with live coral in it. It requires incredibly intense lighting

 

Blogger

@Caleb: ...reef aquariums...

What's a reef aquarium?

I just don't know if I could make enough money from selling them to make it worth my time

Blogger

@Max: this is going to be a long night for me, so I'll be ready to give it a try as soon as you post it ;-)

Blogger

I've been tempted to make custom high output lights for reef aquariums

 

Blogger

@Crusty: I have just started to work with the Xmega and that has been a real learning curve for me do you want a blog on this as well?

Of course! LOL

@Javi: Are you going to release the proto board as Open Hardware?? cool!!

Yup -- that way we follow the spirit of the open s/w h/w Arduino -- in realiity most people just want to buy the boards and get on with their projects.

@Max I have just started to work with the Xmega and that has been a real learning curve for me do you want a blog on this as well?

CEO

@Javi: I'm programming with Python in this moment, but I can switch to C-like mode if requested ;-)

I was poised to send you an email yesterday evening -- but I thought I'd sleep on it -- and by this morning I'd solved the problem -- watch out for my blog and see if you can spot where I went wrong...

@Crusty: As I generally use Bascom to programme AVR I can run soft I2C or SPI on nearly any pin.

The thing is that a lot of Arduino users are absolute beginners -- they just want to plug the shields in and have them work -- it comes as a big shock to some of them when they upgrade to a Mega and find that 1/2 of their shields no longer work.

 

@Max: "I did run into a problem with my code yesterday"

I'm programming with Python in this moment, but I can switch to C-like mode if requested ;-)

Blogger

@Max: Are you going to release the proto board as Open Hardware?? cool!!

Blogger

@Javi: I don't have any experience with Arduinos...

I must admit that I'm REALLY enjoying myself playing with them -- I did run into a problem with my code yesterday -- I'll be posting a blog about it later today...

@Max: As I generally use Bascom to programme AVR I can run soft I2C or SPI on nearly any pin.

CEO

What kind of price point are you seeing for a quantity of 100 (or nearest price breakpoint)?

 

Staff

Open source? Ah, well. So much for that idea.

Staff

@Max: Thanks for this explanation -- I don't have any experience with Arduinos...

Blogger

@Rich: The idea of offering the gerbers...

In fact this will be an open-source project in the spirit of all Arduino projects, so the schematic files and gerbers will be available to all anyway

Crusty - I've been selling small quantities of my robot boards on ebay off and on for probably ten years now. It's always been more a case of just trying to roucoup some of my costs than of making a profit. The nice thing about a Kickstarter is that you don't have to guess ahead of time and risk the money needed to buy in quantity.

Blogger

@Garcia: I wonder why they did it this way...

You never know what trade-offs are involved -- with the Leonardo, which is almost identical to the Uno, they basically added 2 extra pins -- in the case of the Mega and Due, then had a lot of difital pins ~50 and fewer analog pins ~16 -- so them moved the I2C from the analog pins across the board to some of the new digital pins.

The idea of offering the gerbers allows low-level supporters to give something and get something that doesnt cost you anything. Just a thought. Might give you more dollars than asking for donations that more than cover the cost of the board and parts and shipping.

Staff

selling them for $1000 a shot (and it costs us only $10 to make them)

I see sleep deprivation is making you punchy again

Staff

Rich - at individual quantities, the raw boards will cost a lot more than shipping would.

Blogger

@Rich: So, how many boxes to you want to handle?

Well, that depends on how much profit we end up making -- if we end up selling them for $1000 a shot (and it costs us only $10 to make them) -- then I'd be happy to go to the post office multiple times a day LOL

@Max: Solving the I2C issue is a great deal! I wonder why they did it this way...

Blogger

@Crusty: Like the drum synth in your pants project...

Hitting yourself there with the drum sticks certainly does get a little wearing after a while LOL

You could make your basic support level get just the gerber files and BOM, to save shipping costs

Staff

One big point about these boards is that a lot of Uno shields are I2C based -- but these won't easily run on Leonardos or Dues or Megas because their I2C pins are in different places -- our proto-boards solve thsi issue -- in my latest blog I showed my I2C-based Uno LCD shield working with my Mega

@Duane: It might be possible to set up VAR resellers using e-bay outlets at their risk. Might save you the problem of buyers having to pa import charges which can be very high.

CEO

Rich - I've been thinking about a Kcikstarter project for quite a while, but scalability has always been my big concern. 50 units is one business model. 500 is a totally different model and 5,000 is again, a radically different business model. I've watched companies get into trouble by planning for one business model and ending up with volumes that put them in a differnt one.

Blogger

just sticking things in boxes and taking them to the post office

So, how many boxes to you want to handle?

Staff

@Duane: Much the cost that I would have expected so many must fail, Like the drum synth in your pants project

CEO

@Duane: 10% is a really big percentage

Blogger

@Rich: what volume are you willing to handle? Seems to me that more than 1000 would be a bit much

The great thing about thsi project is that it's low risk -- we have already build the prototypes of these boards -- I have one sitting on my desk in front of me as we speak.

We will be offering them as bare boards, or as kits with boards and connectors etc. that you solder in yourself -- so there's no manufacturing/assembly/test stuff that coudl become overwhelming -- just sticking things in boxes and taking them to the post office.

Rich - SparkFun and Adafruit would both be companies woth checking out for distribution

Blogger

Crusty - It's a lot more than I had expected. Between Kickstarter and Amazon payments (the only payment system they support) it can be up to 10%

Blogger

Msx, might your friends at SparkFun take some off your hands if you have too many, and resell them?

Staff

@Crusty: I have must be a dozen Arduino boards of all flavours

The great thing about our system is that the "Master" board works with Arduino Unos and Leonardos -- and the Master-Expansion combo works with Dues and Megas

The trade off is between what seems like a reasonable minumim quantity goal and where the cost structure makse sense.

Blogger

@Max/Duane: what is the cost that Kickstarter takes?

 

CEO

Also, what volume are you willing to handle? Seems to me that more than 1000 would be a bit much

Staff

Rich - You've nailed the real key to this. There will be a range of quantities that seem to make sense, but some of them simply don't fit with a viable business model.

Blogger

@garcia, we are not legally liable... but YEAH!

Blogger

@Rich: ...where are the price breakpoints? It's not a linear relationship, it's quantized. Figure out which breakpoint volume makes the most sense, and cross your fingers.

In fact that's just what we are doing -- Duane sent me a BOM/Price matrix just the other day including all the different price-point breaks.

@Caleb: do you want me to perform a live upgrade??? LOL

Blogger

Max "Maybe this can be your next hobby project"

Maybe I can combine it with a high-voltage tesla coil I've been thinking about.

Blogger

@Max well I have must be a dozen Arduino boards of all flavours and It would be great to connect via screw terminals on at least 4 boards

CEO

I've found the whole Kickstarter process very interesting. I've worked with start ups and their financial models since back in the 80's and it's not that different, but a few things have to come in from a completely different angle.

Blogger

Max, look at the problem a different way, where are the price breakpoints? It's not a linear relationship, it's quantized. Figure out which breakpoint volume makes the most sense, and cross your fingers.

Staff

@Duane: I think what I need to create is a device connected to my calendar that will give me an electrics shock when I'm missing something


Maybe this can be your next hobby project

@garcia, haha, save it for the chat on march 5th!

 

Blogger

Caleb

If you are interested in following up on Rich's comments on a Peak Detector here (from Bill Schweber on Planet Analog) is somewhere you could start

Blogger

@Duane: I think what I need to create is a device connected to my calendar that will give me an electrics shock when I'm missing something

If it was radio controlled, I'd be happy to press the button at the appropriate time for you LOL

@Caleb: By the way, I'm using a Rigol DS1052E just now, but I've not upgraded to 100Mhz yet -- I'm a bit scary of breaking something before ending my current project

Blogger

Caleb, longer might be better so we can do an "official reading." But whatever you come up with will be super

Staff

I think what I need to create is a device connected to my calendar that will give me an electrics shock when I'm missing something.

Blogger

How many of these protoboards do you think we shoudl target? There are a lot of Arduino users out there, but how many need a proto-board?

@Susan: Mainly replacing a terrible commercial alarm system have a Butane and Propane alarm home built

CEO

@rich, it currently waits a second, then drops but I could probably update it to stay for much longer

Blogger

@Rich: ...how much money will you be asking for...

We're not sure yet -- this is one of the thinks we're discovering about a Kickstarter project -- estimating how many people will be interested is key.

If we estimate too low -- like say 100 people, then the boards and parts will be too expensive. If we estimate too high -- like say 100,000 people -- then the cost falls dramatically, but we won't get enough people on Kickstarter, so the project will fail.

 

Caleb, if you have the bandwidth, it would be cool if your meter would keep lit the LED corresponding to peak volume so we could have an accurate measure. A peak value detector, in other words. Perhaps even with a different led color.

In your copious spare time, of course

Staff

Crusty, what other electronic improvements have you made on your caravan?

Blogger

@Max I thought the silk screen would be a Hawian shirt patten

CEO

@Max: your proto board seems really handy and flexible -- the bigger the better ;-)

Blogger

Yikes. I'm late. I had this at 11:00am, Pacific

Blogger

@Max: Already asked Duane to look at an area for a bidirectional level shifter on further prototypes?

CEO

Max, how much money will you be asking for, and what will you do with it (besides bacon)?

Staff

@Caleb: ...the gadget showdown will possibly be judged by the applaus-o-meter

Is this the Gadget Smackdown Karen mentioned?

There are a coupel of other Arduino prototyping boards out there -- but we think ours has some really innovative and cool features...

@garcia, the gadget showdown will possibly be judged by the applaus-o-meter

Blogger

Waiting for MicroPython and SliceCase rewards to arrive.

CEO

Hi, AD. keeping busy, as you might expect. Running IoT World site, like Microcontroller Central but dedicated to the Internet of Things. Drop by some time.

Staff

This proto-board is going to have "EETimes Edition" on the silk screen

If things go really well there may be a race to Kickstarter

Author

This is one of those mobile-friendly sites -- the contents reorganize themselves as you shrink your browser window or if you look at it on a smartphone or whatever...

RichQ

Is that you? Long time no speak! How are you doing?

Blogger

@Max I want in to back the board you and Duane are making. web site test Yes please

CEO

@Caleb: "'I'm working on the applaus-o-meter for EE Live!"

Are you going to evaluate the speakers in this way? ;-)

Blogger

@Caleb: 2 meters of RGB LEDs!

NeoPixels I assume

@Caleb/ Max : If I did not keep buying parts and kits then I might get to EE-Live LOL

CEO

Max

Now, that's a blog I want to post on EE Times!!!

I am taking it with me to EE Live, just to complete the feel- then I'll do the blog, if no one beats me to it! I call dibs.

Blogger

Do you want to see the website Duane and I have set up to be linked to from the Kickstarter project -- you would be the very first people to see it...

And how is that going, Caleb?

Blogger

Caleb, we going to use that at the Gadget Freak show?

 

Staff

I'm working on the applaus-o-meter for EE Live!

2 meters of RGB LEDs!

Blogger

@Max got a cheap android tablet from Tesco at what must be less than cost running Python on it and Arduino.

CEO

@antedeluvian: I could say I am evaluating the Microsoft Surface tablet vis-a-vis the iPad

Now, that's a blog I want to post on EE Times!!!

@Susan: thank you very much -- I'll try to work even harder in the future. LOL

Blogger

As part of the Prognostication Engine, Duane Benson and I have designed a Universal Screw-Block Proto-Shield System for Arduino http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1321054&_mc=sm_eet_edit

 

The exciting news is that we are planning on launching it as a Kickstarter project -- neither of us has done one before, so we though this would be a good way to dip our toes in the water.

The PCB itself can generate nanosecond width pulses, but 50MHz of bandwidth are pretty enough for general debugging

Blogger

Max

what hobby projects are you working on at the moment

You mean aside from churning out blogs? I guess I could say I am evaluating the Microsoft Surface tablet vis-a-vis the iPad

Blogger

bugger -- the links still don;t show up in these chat windows -- here's the link: http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1320625&_mc=sm_eet_edit

I'm using it while chatting in order to write a "Getting Started Guide + Demo" for an Open Hardware PCB that is being used by CERN

Blogger

@all: Anyone hacked the Owen scopes to a higher spec than sold. I like my Owen but the Interface to a computer is not very good.

CEO

Agreed about Garcia's blogs. Garcia's blogs are very popular.

Blogger

I'm still working on my Inamorata Prognostication Engine -- having SO MUCH FUN!!!

Weather was very snowy and then it warmed up and rained last night. Was like a skating rink this morning

Blogger

Also Antedeluvian -- what hobby projects are you working on at the moment?

Thanks Crusty, you are very kind ;-)

Blogger

Hi Antedeluvian -- how's life in Canada?

@Garcia your blogs are very interesting

CEO

So Javi, what hobby projects are you working on -- and how do you loike your new scope?

@Crusty: She's in Sheffield, which is the middle of England -- they did have a lot of bad weather, but nothing like the 100+ MPH winds at the coast

Hello Crusty, I'm pleased to see you again!

Blogger

@Crusty: It is good to be back having a chat!

@Max: Has your Mum survived the wet weather?

CEO

Good evening from Spain ;-)

Blogger

@Crusty: ...have begun to write a blog about using them if Max wants it for EE Times.

Of course I want it!!!

Hi Max good to get this chat back on line

CEO

Whty is the price for the micro JST crimper so expensive £300 to £500 for one. Have found a cheaper one on Ebay but that is also £50.

CEO

I have the alarm detection circuit already sorted out for my caravan but I want to use a graphic output from the alarms tri-axial detector to show when the pitch and roll of the caravan is to great while towing, and also use it's output to show when the caravan is level when parking up.

CEO

Oh cool! what are you building?

Blogger

Ok so Crusty is happy to show and tell about his project of the moment.

I have just started to get my Microduino Kickstarter boards fired up and have begun to write a blog about using them if Max wants it for EE Times.

CEO

well, I'm in the southern end of missouri and it has warmed up here pleasantly

 

Blogger

Hi Caleb, the weather has at last started to be less wet in England, how is the cold spell in America?

CEO

Don't forget to show off your projects (hobby or otherwise) in a few minutes at our live chat, starring Max Maxfield and Caleb Kraft. Click on this message to get to the chat portal. (you need to sign in to the site to comment.) See you there.

Blogger

I'll be here!

... or am already here an hour early.

Blogger

Our next live online chat will commence on Friday 21 February 2014 at 10:00 a.m. Pacific Time (1:00 p.m. Eastern Time; 6:00 p.m. GMT/UTC). You'll have to work out your local time from these clues (you can always use this handy-dandy Time Zone Converter).

The main topic of this chat will be the projects we are all currently working on. These may be work-related projects or hobby projects -- whatever we all want to chat about that's cool and interesting.

Having said this, as always we will be following our usual practice of leaping from topic to topic with the agility of young, fearless mountain goats, so make sure you're wearing appropriate clothing!



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