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daleste
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CEO
Re: Cost/transistor figures
daleste   3/25/2014 8:22:51 PM
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The other issue is, as you shrink to new technology nodes and grow the wafer size, the number of die per wafer you get may be more than you can sell.  Even if you only run 12 wafers per lot, which is not as economical as running full lots, you may get too many dice for your demand, unless you have a very large die size.  This is why it has been more economical for Intel to move to these cutting edge technologies quicker than the rest of the industry since the processor die sizes tend to be larger than the products from the rest of the industry.

alex_m1
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CEO
Re: 180nm followed by 65nm
alex_m1   3/25/2014 5:11:44 PM
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I think de geus is measuring "large" by number of designs/number of tool licenses. Considering 180nm is the most popular node for mcu's and probably for analog which have plenty of small designs(just look at the vareity of mcu's).

alex_m1
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CEO
Re: Cost/transistor figures
alex_m1   3/25/2014 5:09:18 PM
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Yes double/triple litho costs more, but they only do it for a very few layers(out of something like maybe 15-20) and litho is only 25% of total costs according to you're article. How does it become so expensive part of total cost?

rick merritt
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Blogger
Re: 180nm followed by 65nm
rick merritt   3/25/2014 4:42:16 PM
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@Wilbur: De Geuss said 90nm was never that big because of delays getting it up and running. Not sure why 180nm has been so large but it is in the middle of the field of process nodes still in use today.

rick merritt
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Blogger
Re: Cost/transistor figures
rick merritt   3/25/2014 4:40:59 PM
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@Alex: The main reason for higher costs is the need to pattern some layers of 20nm and later chips two or more times under immersion litho machines to get the needed resolution.

alex_m1
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CEO
Re: Cost/transistor figures
alex_m1   3/25/2014 4:34:53 PM
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Rick ,


Is it possible that one big reason behind those high prices is the lack of competition at advanced nodes ?

wilber_xbox
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CEO
180nm followed by 65nm
wilber_xbox   3/25/2014 12:37:13 PM
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Rick, do you know what is still driving 180nm technology. Are there additional benefits/cost related advantages. Also what about 130nm or 90nm? I think 90nm should have been better poised than 65nm.

wilber_xbox
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CEO
Re: Cost/transistor figures
wilber_xbox   3/25/2014 12:33:39 PM
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The marignal decrease in cost below 28nm is mostly due to double/triple patterning of the mask and the additional complexity in patterning. Going to 450mm wafer is major undertaking and given today's semi environment no company wants to risk money. I think it puts additional pressure on ASML to deliver EUV.

daleste
User Rank
CEO
Re: Cost/transistor figures
daleste   3/24/2014 9:53:27 PM
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I don't have any data for costs at 16/14nm, but I'm not surprised that the demise of Moore's law is again being brought up.  New process nodes are very expensive both in equipment and engineering to get it yielding.  Sometimes it is hard to see any reduction of cost for a long time.  Going to a larger diameter wafer is even more expensive since almost all of the fab equipment has to be replaced to handle the larger wafer.  Again, it takes a lot of engineering effort and time to get the yields up.

rick merritt
User Rank
Blogger
Cost/transistor figures
rick merritt   3/24/2014 8:18:31 PM
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Anybody have data on cost/transistor at 16/14nm?



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