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_hm
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Forgive and Forget
_hm   5/3/2014 3:44:53 PM
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Apple will eventually learn lessons that universal truth in adage of fogive and forget helps more. Making more enemies is never good for long term.

goafrit
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Re: Forgive and Forget
goafrit   5/3/2014 4:03:33 PM
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>> Apple can claim it won by far the most damages ($119.6 million) and instances of infringement

Samsung won - this is a small expense for the billions they made. If that is how it works, infringement is a nice business model

goafrit
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Re: Forgive and Forget
goafrit   5/3/2014 4:07:10 PM
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>> Apple infringed Samsung's '449 patent on presenting photos and videos.

That is very unfortunatel that Apple copies others and yet have the boldness to be making this noise. This has nothing to do with infringement. They want Samsung out so they can sell iPhone for $2,000 per unit

goafrit
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Like the U.S. vs EU banks
goafrit   5/3/2014 4:09:31 PM
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>> The eight-person jury decided Samsung owes Apple $119.6 million for infringing three of its patents. Apple owes Samsung $158,000 for infringing one of its patents. 

It is the same parity you see in the banking industry where European banks are hit more than U.S. banks on these penalties by U.S. regulators. What is $158k for Apple? I know the jurors knew Samsung is not American.

rick merritt
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Re: Like the U.S. vs EU banks
rick merritt   5/3/2014 9:31:51 PM
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Samsung asked for waaaay less damages than Apple. I suspect it was part of their strategy to portray Apple as unrealistic in asking for billions.

krisi
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CEO
Re: Like the U.S. vs EU banks
krisi   5/4/2014 11:34:14 AM
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Yes, it is all in strategy...there is an interesting view that Samsung should had been shut down years ago for illegal patent practices:

"According to various court records and people who have worked with Samsung, ignoring competitors' patents is not uncommon for the Korean company. And once it's caught it launches into the same sort of tactics used in the Apple case: countersue, delay, lose, delay, appeal, and then, when defeat is approaching, settle. "They never met a patent they didn't think they might like to use, no matter who it belongs to," says Sam Baxter, a patent lawyer who once handled a case for Samsung. "I represented [the Swedish telecommunications company] Ericsson, and they couldn't lie if their lives depended on it, and I represented Samsung and they couldn't tell the truth if their lives depended on it." -- Vanity Fair: The Great Smartphone War."

krisi
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CEO
Re: Like the U.S. vs EU banks
krisi   5/4/2014 11:37:04 AM
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I wonder how much Apple paid to settle its anti-trust violation, see New York time commentary:

"If Steve Jobs were alive today, should he be in jail? That's the provocative question being debated in antitrust circles in the wake of revelations that Mr. Jobs, the co-founder of Apple, who is deeply revered in Silicon Valley, was the driving force in a conspiracy to prevent competitors from poaching employees... Mr. Jobs "was a walking antitrust violation," said Herbert Hovenkamp, a professor at the University of Iowa College of Law and an expert in antitrust law. "I'm simply astounded by the risks he seemed willing to take." -- New York Times: Steve Jobs Defied Convention, and Perhaps the Law.

goafrit
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Re: Like the U.S. vs EU banks
goafrit   6/3/2014 2:21:31 PM
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>> "If Steve Jobs were alive today, should he be in jail? 

That was sensational journalism. Apple is a corp and not Steve Jobs. The highest penalty is fine Apple. There is no point of Jobs going to jail as Apple is not a one man business. That is why people incorporate!

Bert22306
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Now Microsoft can sue Apple
Bert22306   5/3/2014 6:06:53 PM
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I'm too lazy to check out the other patents, but certainly Apple didn't invent autocorrection? I don't understand how these apparent oversights continue to be allowed in these Apple v Samsung lawsuits.

http://www.neowin.net/news/thank-microsoft-for-autocorrect

Haven't the jurors been using word processors for the past decades?

Magnus Thordarson
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Blogger
Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
Magnus Thordarson   5/3/2014 9:20:37 PM
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>Haven't the jurors been using word processors for the past decades?

 

Even if any particular juror knows for a fact that this feature was invented by someone other than the parties to the lawsuit, they cannot find the patent invalid if evidence in that regard has not been presented in court during the trial.  So when there is an 'oversight' of this sort, it is really the lawyers' fault.  I thought the Samsung laywers did not bring convincing evidence in their own defense on this one and was therefore not surprised by the outcome.

 

One can argue similarly as you do about what Apple calls quick-links and wonder when Apple invented embedded links.  Similarly on that one, Samsung did not present that angle in their defense and were not convincing.

 

I covered parts of the trial for EETimes and I can only say the attorneys' lack of understanding of the technology boggled the mind.

 

 

tooltalk
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Rookie
Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
tooltalk   5/4/2014 2:58:00 PM
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@Magnus Thordarson: that's so true. I think Samsung $800/hr lawyers basically said Apple's patent applies to only physical keyboard and offered no other convincing defense. Judge Koh didn't buy that and granted a summary judgement on that.

As for the quicklink claim construction that extended the trial by one day, Judge Koh really leaned on Apple's claim construction and that prevented what Samsung's lawyers were allowed to present to the jury. 

Hopefully all these issues can be addressed in the court of appeals for the federal cirtcuit with more experienced, less partial judges. 

GSMD
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Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
GSMD   5/3/2014 10:23:48 PM
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The whole problem with the US judicial setup when it comes to patent law is that it depends on two entities unqualified to make a call on  these issue, the judiciary and the jury system ! Thankfully the Indian system has multiple safeguards (in theory) to avoid this problem.

 

1. Patent appeals do not go to the regular courts but to a Patent Tribunal which is led by a senior retired judge (judges retire at 65 in India) but has a technical member panel. These are usually folks who are senior staff from the patent office or related departments. Hopefully the tribunal will start accepting experts from the private sector. But the bottom line is that these cases are heard by someone who has some understanding of patent law and who knows technology. The tribunal can appoint amicus curae  experts. The judge would have no hesitation in asking the local CS Dept. opinion for example. In effect the ruling depends on technical merits and and less so on legal precedent. 

The Indian supreme court which happily is on an activist crusade (that is if you lean left of center like me). It recently declared the core section of the Indian Constitution out of bounds to any amendments saying that the fundamental nature of the Constituion is inviolable and hence the Parliment is forbidden to alter it. No nonsense about the intent of the founding fathers like other courts. We essentially got our Bill of  Rights not by legislation but by a single court ruling. So in patent cases, it will typically not overrule the tribunal unless the ruling is grossly wrong and will be creative in interperting patent law to suit the times.

2. Thanks to our infamous Secition 3(k), SW patents per se and process patents are disallowed. So it is very easy to challenge a validity of a patent in front of the IPAB. As Yahoo found out to its cost, these kind of patents even if granted will simply not stand scrutiny. It cost a major online newspaper and portal just about USD 20-30K to challenge and win against Yahoo. The lawyer who won the case is a pal of mine and turns out that the whole process was just a few hearings.

3. Even when patents are enforced, there is not a single case where the tribunal or the courts above it (you can appeal the tribunal's decison in the High Court or Supreme Court) have agreed to large patent royalty. The various drug companies are finding this out to their dismay.  Even if someone like Eriicsson asks for exorbitant royalties, the India Anti-Trust folks get their fangs on you even before the Patent tribunal gets to hear about it. As Ericsson is finding out. BTW, I am advising the Indian Hanset Manufacturer's association in their battle with Ericsson. I do not charge for my services, so my opinion here is not biased due to monetary gains. I am getting assistance from the SFLC folks on this.

In this particular case, it is interesting to see how wireless patents pan out. They all run on a DSP so they are software. I guess if you invent a new antenna or RF power mgmt controller, that in conjucntion in the SW may be patentable but not SW running on a general purpose DSP with std. antennae. I intend to challenge Ericsson seperately on this. 

I am not saying this setup is perfect but it strive to do the following

- qualified professionals decide on the technical merits of a patent, not lawyers, judges or juries

- patent royalties are kept reasonable (drug patents fall into a seperate category where Indian law mandates affordability for royalties and also mandates mandatoty licensing if so requited)

- patent litigation is very affordable 

 

The icing on the cake is that Govt. of India has its own Linux distribution (called B.O.S.S) and soon an android variant too. I wonder if MS will take the Govt. of India to court, the very entity that decides what is patentable ? I also wonder if the Android handset vendors who are paying MS are adding that cost to handsets sold in India. If they are, I can ask MS for a refund !

 

 

Jack.L
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Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
Jack.L   5/4/2014 8:42:31 AM
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Great thank you for enlightening us that intellectual property protection in India is at many times no better than in China and appears at the whim of the state. now I know not to outsource software development there or anything where IP protection is important.

GSMD
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Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
GSMD   5/4/2014 11:45:16 AM
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You seem to be misreading my comments. IP protection in India is excellent and it is very cheap to file a ptent , defend and win an injunction. It just costs USD500 to file patent. And judgement is quick since you have dedicated patent courts. So unlike the US, the small invendor has it good here. And it is far easier to get a patent injuction in India.

So please do not confuse lack of IP protection with SW patenting issues which is an entirely different matter.

But you seem to have some philosophical affinity towards SW patents which most of the world does not recognize (as a matter of fact the US law does not allow it either, it is just the subordinate judiciary that messed it up in this area). By your position, you should not outsource to NZ or a lot of European countries for that matter !

But yes, if you outsource to India, your SW alogorithm is not protected since SW is not patentable. But we do have very strong copyright laws so your code is protected. There are  also specific provsions for IC mask layouts to ensure IP protection for the IC industry.

I hope you understand the distinction I making here. In fact as per the Indian IT act, some of these copyrigt infrigements attract criminal provsions. I have had a couple of friends who nearly got arrested becuase their company accused them of stealing an open source GPL'ed driver for an TI Omap. They had to avoid arrest by filing  anticipatory bail and prove in court that the code was open source and not copyrighted to the company. Notices were also issues to TI and Intel in this case. So before you cast aspersions on a properly thought out SW IP protection regime, please do spend time in comprehending the issues. 

krisi
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CEO
Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
krisi   5/4/2014 11:32:31 AM
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Are you saying that Indian judiciary system is better than in USA?

GSMD
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Manager
Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
GSMD   5/4/2014 12:05:48 PM
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There was a time when I held the US constitution and the US supreme court in the highest regard. The federalist paper was one of my favorite things to read back in high school. But after the gulf war, the US Supreme court seems to have take a turn for the worse. The balance has disapperead. I still like your constitution, just do not agree with the regressive interpretation of it.

The judicial process in the US is smoother and and takes less time. But the judgements of late leave a lot to be desired.  After all you are losing your fundamental rights by the day while we are gaining more by the day !

We just waived the death penalty for the people who assasinated our former Prime Minister. They may even be released since life imprisonment is only 25 years with good behaviour. The reason given by the court was that 10+ years on the death row is cruel and unusual punishment and the rights of the convicts were violated. You can look at similar cases in the US and judge for yourself.

We also got a whole lot of our western mountains designated as a protected area by the court. I could go on and on.

You tell me which court is more forward looking and in tune with the 21st century.

Wrt the patent law, this means the court is intellectually able to balance the interests of all parties and arrive at a reasonable judgement. It is not held hostage solely to the principles of commercial law. So yes with respect to patent and IP law our system is much better.

Maybe if you you retired your judges at 65, you may get a more forward thinking court. I frankly have no clue as to how your situation came about. I am dismayed that a standard bearer of judicial thought should deteriorate to these levels.

betajet
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CEO
Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
betajet   5/4/2014 2:14:59 PM
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GSMD wrote: Maybe if you you retired your judges at 65, you may get a more forward thinking court.  I frankly have no clue as to how your situation came about.

USA Supreme Court justices are nominated by the President of the USA and confirmed by the Senate.  To see how our situation came about, simply look at who was president when each justice was selected.  Presidents come and go, but Supreme Court justices can implement a president's policies for decades after.

Regarding age, the USA has seen many justices become more liberal the longer they've served.  I suspect that it's because decisions that seemed simple when they got started became more complex as they heard more cases and saw that the whole truth is rarely compatible with rigid thinking.

GSMD
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Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
GSMD   5/5/2014 1:06:29 AM
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I too would expect that Judges become more liberal/centrist as they age. Happens in India too (pro govt. judges become independent once appointed much to the cahgrin of the govt.)  but lately this does not seem to be happening in the US supreme court.  the centrist caucus is thinning. That is what puzzles me and I have been following the US supreme court for a  couple of decades now.

But the bigger concern (as far as this thread is concerned)  is with respect to patent law and technology law in general. Here the court seems to be a little at sea. At the risk of sounding ageist can a 70 year old really appreciate in his or her gut  how facebook or twitter changes the nature of social discourse and the norms of privacy ? I am pushing 50 and I myself am able to discern a tech disconnect with teenagers in the use of technology. If a hard core techie like me feels the disconnect and cannot fully relate to the younger generation, how on earth can a 70 + non-techie be reasonably expected to have a Solomon like wisdom in these matters ?

rick merritt
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Author
Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
rick merritt   5/4/2014 8:58:09 PM
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@GSMD: How can I get more information about India's Android variant?

GSMD
User Rank
Manager
Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
GSMD   5/5/2014 12:38:26 AM
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I am the project lead so I can give you all the details you want !

1. The Android layer per se is not touched. The goal is to create an extra secure OS layer under Android to allow creation of high security phone/tablets. We will add secure Android apps. Want to stick to the stock android user experience.

2. We have created a tablet reference platform using the Freescale i.MX6 and this will soon be open sourced.

3. The platform was chosen since it supports tamper detect, high assurance boot and ARM trustzone support the most transparently (docs, support etc). But our changes can be applied to any Trustzone enabled platform with HAB, including the new AMD parts.

4. Currently we have tamper detect and high assurance boot running. We have a genode secure micro-kernel being ported right now and when that is complete, Android will run as a virtualized OS on top of Genode. Genode will also leverage the TrustZone API to provide high assurance services. Both Genode and Android can use the screen and secure applications can run either on Genode or use Android APIs to genode services. Direct use of gemode is preferable for screens like authenticated pinpads. This would be useful for any commerce/banking applications since it ensures no MIM type attacks or phishing attacks are possible.

5. I am also trying to port the Android VM (the new version, not Dalvik) directly on to Genode so that the underlying Linux layer can be eliminated. This will make native app development difficult but allows the system to reach  max security levels.

Pretty much any vendor can take our source and build an extremely high security phone/tablet. All of it is in open source. I want to make sure that an ultra secure phone like the one Boeing sells, should only be USD 20-30 extra compared to a normal phone. Plan to see if the Cyanogen folks can adopt our stuff.

goafrit
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Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
goafrit   6/2/2014 7:12:41 AM
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>> ! Thankfully the Indian system has multiple safeguards (in theory) to avoid this problem.

You need to consider that some of the revolutionary ideas on earth had been rejected by peer review. The constructs of juror is that if you cannot make your case against a novice, you have no chance before pros. That means, let your argument be so simple that any sane person may make sense of it.

_hm
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CEO
Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
_hm   5/4/2014 8:51:25 AM
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Even Microsoft has copied most of them.

Pioneers may be Wordstar, Wordperfect and most prominent among them Xerox with their Ventura.

Ventura was so good word processing software, many of current Microsoft MS Words lags behind in many features and ease of using it.

goafrit
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Manager
Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
goafrit   6/2/2014 7:14:23 AM
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>> Ventura was so good word processing software, many of current Microsoft MS Words lags behind in many features and ease of using it

That is actually true except that Ventura lagged behind in the metric that matter - finding how to get people to buy the software. As I have noted in the past, it is not just technology that wins. You need to have a business development strategy. Microsoft was excellent in that than other competitors.

goafrit
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Manager
Re: Now Microsoft can sue Apple
goafrit   6/2/2014 7:09:30 AM
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>> Haven't the jurors been using word processors for the past decades?

Jurors are expected to be "experts" to understand things they have no expertise in. I think all comes down to the theatritical performances of attorneys. Both Samsung and Apple invented "nothing". The people that invented things have all died and most died poor with nothing. They include Pythogaras, Euclid etc. None patented their models

Cortus
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Slide to unlock
Cortus   5/4/2014 1:37:15 PM
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A mate of mine was using slide to unlock on our Applicon GDS II physical layout system back in 1981.

For those of you too young to remember, the Applicon layout system used a stylus and a pad for entering commands. The character recognition sofware was rather primitive so most commands where relatively simple strokes. Users would define their own mapping of strokes to commands. The most common ones where diagonal strokes for selecting vertices (top right to bottom left), the reverse for deselecting. Vertical down stroke for move. Horizontal left to right for copy etc etc. And in the case of my mate a horizontal right to left stroke to unlock a locked workstation (if his set of commands was still loaded). 

The Applicon system was a considerably in advance in terms of productivity in skille hands compared to many systems which followed it.

 

 

 

rick merritt
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Author
Re: Slide to unlock
rick merritt   5/4/2014 8:16:13 PM
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@Cortus: There may be some Samsung attorneys wishing they had this as a possible example of prior art

Dan Glass
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Re: Slide to unlock
Dan Glass   5/5/2014 12:19:05 PM
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I'm not at all surprised that the slide-to-unlock feature has been used before.  What astounds me is that it is patentable - it seems farily obvious.  The real innovation I see in "slide-to-unlock" is it's use as an economic weapon.

AZskibum
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CEO
The real winners
AZskibum   5/5/2014 10:40:12 AM
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The real winners were the lawyers, on both sides. There might be a lesson there.

goafrit
User Rank
Manager
Re: The real winners
goafrit   6/2/2014 7:16:04 AM
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>> The real winners were the lawyers, on both sides. There might be a lesson there.

That is the summary. Lawyers win, head or tail and for them that is the most important element. The patent system has to be broken to keep lawyers in business. For them, that is what matters.

fmotta
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Freelancer
A perfectly productive engineer decided to get rich instead
fmotta   5/5/2014 11:30:34 AM
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With all these suits going on for mega billion dollars one of my friends decided to stop being an excellent engineer for a living and reap the rewards of others greed and stupidity and now works in a well placed firm making money from the greed of the patent suit train.  He called this the "dotCom" of this century. There are times I feel I should have gone that way and just argue others' opinion for a living rather than be productive.

zeeglen
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Blogger
Re: A perfectly productive engineer decided to get rich instead
zeeglen   5/5/2014 12:49:22 PM
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@fmotta one of my friends decided to stop being an excellent engineer for a living

About 30 years ago I worked with a young guy new-hire who admitted the only reason he got an engineering degree was so that he could then take law and get rich suing large corporations over engineering patents.


After 6 months of producing absolutely nothing he got canned - no loss.  But he probably made a 'fine' lawyer.


cookiejar
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Manager
jury fair
cookiejar   5/5/2014 1:38:01 PM
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Considering that the jury was from the heart of America's Silicon Valley, I must say I was surprised the jury didn't consider it their patriotic duty to severely punish Korean Samsung.  The chances are most of them owned Android phones.
I guess the Samsung lawyers learned from the previous trial not to select hard core Silicon Valley employees, one of whom who turned out to be jury foreman at the last trial.

It never ceases to amaze me how blind justice actually is.  We technical people can readily see the blind lawyers leading the blind judges in interpreting what these blind people actually believe is "expert testimony", usually coming from an ivory tower acedemic who has published the most papers.  Non-PhDs need not apply.


GSMD
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Re: jury fair
GSMD   5/5/2014 1:51:47 PM
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If I were to fantasize, we should have a technology arbitration tribunal for cases like these with binding arbitration. Composed solely of engineers with impeccable repuation. Guys like Bob Pease (miss that guy's writing, RIP ), Ken Thompson and so on. At least both sides would get a fair hearing and obvious patents would get knocked out with a withering comment of " You actually think that is original ?" ! Fundamentally this is one engineer being accused of ripping of another engineer's work, so why let non-techies into the action !

I wonder if I can get a patent for this idea ?

Anand.Yaligar
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Rookie
Re: jury fair
Anand.Yaligar   5/7/2014 7:46:39 AM
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I did not expect this case to end this way, expected jury to be hard on the side of Samsung.  But after reading this article   I think the jury was fair. But generally those who have achieved and gained a lot in this case are the lawyers from both sides; this is why I am suggesting that these patent cases should be handled by engineer lawyers since they will understand them in the engineering perspective. 

tooltalk
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Re: jury fair
tooltalk   5/7/2014 8:44:54 AM
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@anan.yaligar: this jury actually did an amazing job especially considering that while judge Koh allowed Apple's lawyer to portraty the USPTO as an invincible institution to the jury, she forbade Samsung's lawyers from telling the jury that the USPTO screwed up and had to invalidate some of Apple's patents which caused Apple to withdraw from the trial right before it began.

Or that Samsung's lawyers were prevented from explaining why Apple's patents royalties were unreasonable and that, in another on-going case involving Motorola, Apple is asking only $0.60 for the same exact datalink patent vs Apple's average asking price $8/patent in this particular case. 

I think Koh is biased. 

goafrit
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Manager
Re: jury fair
goafrit   6/2/2014 7:17:47 AM
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>>  this is why I am suggesting that these patent cases should be handled by engineer lawyers since they will understand them in the engineering perspective. 

I can assure you that most of the lawyers or those in their team have backgrounds relevant to the technologies being disputed. Law in America is a second calling. Most times, IP attorneys have technical first degrees and then they go to Law School.

GSMD
User Rank
Manager
Re: jury fair
GSMD   6/2/2014 11:57:15 AM
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When I meant engineer, I meant a bonafide engineer. Someone with a background in technology does not count. I have met a lot of patent layers in my life. I am sorry, but I generally have contempt for their engineering capabilities. In my field of sw engineering, unless you can code for a living, you will simply not get it. Last year a patent was forefully filed with my name on it! No amou t of protest would prevent my univ. from filing it. I do not think it is worth a patent but a team of non practicing engineers decided otherwise.

goafrit
User Rank
Manager
Re: jury fair
goafrit   6/3/2014 2:23:14 PM
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>> Last year a patent was forefully filed with my name on it! No amou t of protest would prevent my univ. from filing it.

I can loan you my name, please. I want patents because that is money. I have no interest in creating technologies if they will not make my life and those of my family members better through wealth creation,

GSMD
User Rank
Manager
Re: jury fair
GSMD   6/2/2014 11:57:17 AM
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When I meant engineer, I meant a bonafide engineer. Someone with a background in technology does not count. I have met a lot of patent layers in my life. I am sorry, but I generally have contempt for their engineering capabilities. In my field of sw engineering, unless you can code for a living, you will simply not get it. Last year a patent was forefully filed with my name on it! No amou t of protest would prevent my univ. from filing it. I do not think it is worth a patent but a team of non practicing engineers decided otherwise.



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