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anon9303122
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Freelancer
9 Notorious?? 2 Maybe 3 at Best
anon9303122   8/28/2014 11:56:39 AM
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Other than the Toyota UA issue and perhaps the Honda UA in Japan, the rest of these are rather ho-hum. Yes I know the GM key issue was hyped up big time in the press, but the issue itself was minor. The real issue there is poor driver training.

zeeglen
User Rank
Blogger
Memory
zeeglen   8/28/2014 1:56:06 PM
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Given that gate-charge memory such as flash and eeprom can slowly degrade after a few years it would probably be a good idea to avoid this type of memory.  Especially since a failure is no longer a simple ECM replacement to get the car running again, it has now become a "How do I stop this thing!" type of problem.

The alternative is PROM, but IC sockets also have issues unless soldered in, so buggy code could not be easily upgraded unless the entire ECM is replaced.

Probably best to not let the software have any control of speed at all.

tb100
User Rank
CEO
Re: Memory
tb100   8/28/2014 2:15:24 PM
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I thought the Flash degradation was caused by lots of erase/write cycles, as often happens on memory cards in tablets and smartphones. Data retention time with no memory writes should be 20 years, depending on which memory chip you use.

Of course, that doesn't help if you keep the car around for 20 years.

zeeglen
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Memory
zeeglen   8/28/2014 3:14:59 PM
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@tb100 I thought the Flash degradation was caused by lots of erase/write cycles,

Who knows how often the Toyota code writes to the flash?  Michael Barr might know.

Bert22306
User Rank
CEO
Comparing apples with apples
Bert22306   8/28/2014 4:54:55 PM
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Lessons learned? Although consumers have always had to keep an eye out for poorly designed cars (and companies with bad reputations), having more electronics in the car means consumers have to stay more vigilant.

I'm don't think this describes what's going on. I think the truth is, the more systems you design into a car, or into anything else, the more fault modes you will potentially create. The net effect on safety and quality can still be very positive.

All of those air bag recalls are the perfect example. Air bags started showing up as optional equipment in the 1970s and 1980s, and they became mandatory in the US in 1998. So yes, over time, experience will no doubt uncover defects or glitches, and recalls will be issued, but does that mean that today's cars are less well built than those of the 1970s? Far from it.

The other thing is, I get the impression that at GM, Mary Barra is "cleaning up" issues that she thinks were left hanging far too long. Some of the recalls would undoubtedly not have been recalls in the past, but rather treated as any other repair. So we're seeing the huge number of recalls, because these are items that have been unaddressed for a decade or more, and Mary Barra figures should be recalls. I can't blame her. Hopefully for GM, this initial transient will die down and the company will regain some trust with consumers. As it righfully should.

Another point: I think it would be really instructive to compare, say, brake failures in current cars against brake failures of pre-electronics cars, say cars from the 1970s or previous. Or steering problems. Or engine start problems. Or stalling problems. My bet is that in spite of the hyped up recalls lately, the result would be that cars have far, far fewer of these problems than they used to.

Duane Benson
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Blogger
Re: Comparing apples with apples
Duane Benson   8/28/2014 5:31:39 PM
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re: "My bet is that in spite of the hyped up recalls lately, the result would be that cars have far, far fewer of these problem than they used to"

This is so true in my experience. Since the advent of the ECM, I haven't had a car experience vapor lock on a hot day or high altitude. I haven't had a car not start except for the few times I've left my lights on. I haven't had to adjust the mixture on a carburator. I could go on.

It's not just in the elctronics. Metalurgy and design have improved greatly as well. 75,000 miles used to be old for a car. Now, I'd feel cheeted if the car wasn't running strong at twice that mileage.

The down side is that, rare though it may be, there are a larger number of expensive items to go wrong these days.

Susan Rambo
User Rank
Blogger
Re: 9 Notorious?? 2 Maybe 3 at Best
Susan Rambo   8/28/2014 5:35:53 PM
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What auto electronics recalls/failures would be on your list?

sixscrews
User Rank
CEO
Re: 9 Notorious?? 2 Maybe 3 at Best
sixscrews   8/29/2014 1:11:02 AM
Ignition switch failures are deja vu all over again - late '40s and early '50s GM vechicles had an ignition switch prone to failure due to keyring overload (i.e., torque due to vehicle movement).  I saw a number of these things and there was even an article in Popular Mechanics 'Gus Wilsons Model Garage' series where a heavy woman and lighter man traded places between the driver's seat and the passenger seat - when the light man drove, the car quit, when the heavy woman drove the car worked fine.

In the ealy '70s I encountered several GM vechiles with this switch problem - back then the fix was to install an after-market ignition switch and restore domestic bliss.

These days that's not an alternative - with key-coded switches and steering wheel locks after market switches are about as useful as a goat-powered methane digester (which I have also seen - you needed a lot of goats).

As vehicles get to depend on more electronic systems the risk of a minor failure causing a fatal accident becomes greater.  A toothless Federal agency - NHTSA - can't manage these problems in the same way as an agency like the FAA or its enforcement arms can.  It's time for automitive software to be certified by an independent agency with real teeth - prove it works or don't put it on the road.  

People will howl about inhibiiton of invention or creative process - I guess I would rather not be a victim of a creative process gone wrong and wait a couple more years for the latest and greatest car - auto companies can figure this out, they don't need to turn to lobbyists, just listen to their engineers - and spend money on the engineeing/QA department instead of putting more lobbyists in Washington.

 

wb

elizabethsimon
User Rank
CEO
Re: Memory
elizabethsimon   9/5/2014 8:22:06 PM
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@tb100 I thought the Flash degradation was caused by lots of erase/write cycles, as often happens on memory cards in tablets and smartphones. Data retention time with no memory writes should be 20 years, depending on which memory chip you use.

For Flash that is written often, the lifetime is generally limited by the degradation due to erase/write cycles. This is due to excess charge storage in the gate.

For Flash that is written infrequently, the lifetime is limited by the the rate that the charge leaks from the gate. Which is where the 20 years comes from. Unfortunately, the rate of charge migration increases significantly with temperature so is likely to be less under the hood. Also, newer Flash with smaller gate size has less charge storage so the life is less.

 

 



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