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Backlash Coming on Car-to-Car Talk?

9/18/2014 06:55 PM EDT
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DrQuine
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Security concern: Privacy or Spoofing Data?
DrQuine   10/5/2014 9:50:53 AM
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Privacy is not a great concern to me: already ubiquitous security camera networks enable the British to track criminals back to the source and the capability is unfolding here as well.  Security is what worries me.  When a hacker spoofs the data, they'll be able to engineer "accidents" and create chaos requiring retrofits of millions of cars. This is asymmetric warfare: one clever hacker requires a huge retrofit ... just as the hackers move onto the next hack. Already the Internet and USB devices illustrate the vulnerability of devices that are not expecting hackers. Even secure bank systems get hacked as the hackers get ahead of the engineers.

Etmax
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Re: Well, I guess that about wraps it up for cars
Etmax   10/2/2014 2:27:04 AM
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Canadian Indians regularly experienced sub zero (C) temperature sleeping in a teepee in years gone by. I think we have it easy by comparison.

As you alluded to cars may well be about the same cost now as they were in the 70's, but with out a doubt they have become so much safer. If they increased in price too much they companies would sell less resulting in lower profits but that doesn't appear to be happening.


I find life valuable so rather pay more for a car for improved safety.


The biggest problem in the US (a lot of other places too) is that big business doesn't understand that they make more money when their customers have more money to spend, and that requires them to pay their employees a fair wage as they are ultimately their customers (either directly ot indirectly)

The idea that you can sack someone locally and employ someone in a distant country to reduce your wages bill indefinitely is really short sighted stupidity.


When they've figured that out the economy will pick up.

Etmax
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Re: Additional benefits and drawbacks
Etmax   10/2/2014 2:14:56 AM
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Or maybe they will be sitting a sea of cell phone transmitters? cellphone transmitting power 5W peak, V2V transmitting power < 100mW, Every car has almost 1 cell phone per passenger, there will only be one V2V transponder per vehicle.

I think we already have a worse situation now.

Etmax
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Re: Engineers never look at the big picture
Etmax   10/2/2014 2:11:12 AM
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The big picture is that.... Yep true, but then the same could be said of seat belts and air bags, to say we won't do it because the the benefit won't be immediate is a bit silly I think. 

Also just as there were aftermarket headrests and seatbelts maybe some enterprising person can do an aftermarket one that just beeps with impending doom? It may not stop them from hitting someone because of the limited notification ability, but it would prevent someone else that had factory fitted V2V from hitting them.

Etmax
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Re: Counter thought...
Etmax   10/2/2014 2:04:34 AM
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I think any entertainment system that doesn't simply have a button to select stations or a knob for volume or tuning (ie. a menu driven system) should need to disable the menu system as soon as the car in motion. People won't like it but using a menu system while driving is as bad if not worse than using a phone (dialing or SMS) while driving. Driving a car is a lot more risky that flying a plane at cruising altitude, because in a car you are often only seconds disaster where as flying a plane once on a course you are typically minutes from a crash. As retesting drivers, I think better would that instead of fining drivers we send them on a driving couse for retesting that they have to pay for. Depending on how serious a mistake they have made decides whether it's a one day, two day or even one week course. That way good drivers that remember what they've been taught aren't affected, and bad drivers get sent for retraining again and again (maybe even 10 times in a year if they're really thick) until they get it right. That would probably do more to curb accidents than handing out $1000 fines to everybody. It would also prove we are about accident prevention rather than making money off offenders.

Etmax
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Re: Security architecture sounds too complicated
Etmax   10/2/2014 1:50:40 AM
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What you say makes a lot of sense, it could even simply be called an electronic VIN or licence plate.

I've also thought that if the main reason for this is crash avoidance it should be possible to simply have the units all negotiate an ID as part of a join session and that way the data is anonymous. This way privacy advocates have nothing to fear (not that they do anyway)

Personally I don't consider it an impost to have my VIN broadcast, if ever my car was stolen at least I could find it. In fact the only objections I can think of is if I wanted to do something illegal with a vehicle, and to consider that a reason is to say we shouldn't have police because they might arrest criminals. Not entirely the same, but the same logic.

Ray Clark
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Re: Counter thought...
Ray Clark   9/25/2014 6:43:56 PM
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You make alot of sense.  A car is not an entertainment system, and when you drive you are assuming responsibility for people's lives.  I have often thought your thought that people should be retested.  5 Years is good, but why not 2 or 3?  I see no reason not to require people to be competent.  The tests should be less arbitrary and more intensive in terms of driving skills and habits.  There would be a great outcry, but $100 every 2 or 3 years could fund a meaningful test.  Next ban entertainment or distractions aimed at the driver; make him a jet pilot.

As far as all of this automation is concerned, who is going to be held accountable when there IS an accident or someone is injured due to decisions and actions by the automation?  The car manufacturer?  The subsystem manufacturer?  Or the government agency who mandated the automation?  One of those for sure.  You CERTAINLY cannot hold the driver or car owner responsible - they neither commited the crime nor decided to use the technology!

This is a crazy world.  There is no need for this stuff.  What is needed is personal responsibility, compentency, and attention.  Accident rates would go down at least ten fold.

AZskibum
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Monetizing the data
AZskibum   9/23/2014 4:52:23 AM
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With all this talk of safety & security, nobody has mentioned the big data analytics aspects of V2V. This is a gold mine -- which is an equally important reason it may happen sooner rather than later.

fmotta
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Re: Security architecture sounds too complicated
fmotta   9/22/2014 3:04:14 PM
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@junko: We have the ability to legally turn off our phones and many of their location/GPS information.  Will we have the ability to legally turn off such information on our other (automotive) tracking device under the V2V?  Or will we be buying faraday blankets and foil to retain privacy?  My travels are boring - I drive ~15 minutes/8 miles for the most part.  Regardless, the details of this are not public information for the gov't and marketing firms to find other uses - like determining that I should stop at the nearest store and buy more of what google wallet says I purchased last week. Or, using it to determine that I went out for a soda at 1AM so I must be doing something wrong based on some ill-designed profile.

I have no doubt that the information will be misused and likely will be sold - this is what happens with data.  Based on past patterns this information will be made public under "freedom of information" or similar 'act' and then stalkers can use it to track down a celeb or a politician.

Security is what we (individually) create.  Best practices for security is containment of information.  Vehicle transponders need to be contained for the security of all citizens as the data will not be contained once captured.  Simple, complete, historically represented.

fmotta
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Re: Security architecture sounds too complicated
fmotta   9/22/2014 2:38:34 PM
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@Kevin: Without much thought my daughters friend (Starbucks employee) came up with the following scenario:

- Go to a place where there are lots of cars going fast - like HWY 280 and gather the data

- Go to a place where the cars should be traveling much slower - like mainstreet usa

- Make necessary timestamp and GPS data adjustments and retransmit the data

Watch as we have lots of problems (do so from a safe distance so you don't get hit or caught into the mess).

Not bad for a HS drop out with no tech skills. This can also cause problems with smart roads!

RF-based exploits are common place now.

My phone GPS is turned off unless I need it (well, the GPS indicator is off and it has lower power consumption).  Sadly, with cell location this does not increase privacy much.  But, between removing the battery, faraday cage pouches like the off-pocket, and having a phone without a GPS at are options I also have.

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