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Micron, Samsung in Flash Battle

768 Gbit Micron chip beats Samsung’s V-NAND
2/5/2016 08:00 AM EST
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rick merritt
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Calling V-NAND users
rick merritt   2/5/2016 10:55:11 AM
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I'd love to hear from anyone using V-NAND in their designs comment on its pros and cons.

GSMD
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Re: Calling V-NAND users
GSMD   2/5/2016 3:20:35 PM
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We are using it in our open source NVMe+ SSD controller card. There is one great advantage for researchers and hobbyists. Error correction  is simpler compared to planar NAND due to the larger geometry.  Some of the low level details are typically not provided unless you are a  major OEM. Which makes optimal error correction tough, if not impossible to achieve for smaller companies and researchers. Will know better when other folks start using our SSD controller.

By the way we are trying to propose a standard module format for NAND, kind of like DIMMs for DRAM. If anybody else is interested in collaborating with us on this, let me know. The NAND vendors are not too keen on this since it will commditize NAND further !

GSMD
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Re: 1z + 3D
GSMD   2/6/2016 10:44:56 PM
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Samsung was at 40nm last year and probably at 32 nm for shipping 3d nand. Not sure how many layers these have.

resistion
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Re: 1z + 3D
resistion   2/7/2016 8:30:54 AM
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They were scaling down to 20 nm already when Chipworks reversed them last year. So I think they could also be sub-20nm by now.

rick merritt
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Re: Calling V-NAND users
rick merritt   2/7/2016 1:33:26 PM
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@GSMD  Thanks for the feedback on V-NAND...I'm hungry to hear other people's experiences using it.

BTW, startup Diable has been pioneering flash in DIMM sockets to act as main memory. See http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1326564

 

GSMD
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Re: Calling V-NAND users
GSMD   2/7/2016 6:35:06 PM
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Well aware of Diablo. SSD controllers are one of the last bastions of closed systems, so we figured we will do our own open source open source ssd and nvdimm controllers. Try getting permission to develop open source firmware on any ssd controller and you will understand our motivation ! We also needed to develop a controller for our lightstor storage system that we are developing along with the folks at the IT Univ. Of Copenhagen. This is designed to be backward compatible with NVMe and supports features like compute in storage. CPU cores in the ssd controllers can be ARM or our own SHAKTI cores. Most likely the pcb design will also be open source. The idea is that you buy a bare bones ssd card and populate it with your choice of slc, mlc, tlc or nvram modules. Theere is naturally resistance to such commoditization ! It is in this context that we wanted larger geometry flash, low levels of write disturbance makes error correction easier.

resistion
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No 3D commitment?
resistion   2/7/2016 7:55:18 PM
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Executives at Micron have not yet decided whether they will commit to manufacturing the design as a product, Tomoharu Tanaka, a Micron fellow and author of the paper told EE Times.

The comment from Mr. Tanaka is that there is no executive commitment to making 3D NAND a product? It suggests the 3D floating gate processing is still too expensive?

GSMD
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Re: Proof of 1z
GSMD   2/7/2016 9:14:40 PM
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Or have they increased the layers to 48 or maybe 64 ? Still requires a geometry shrink but not a dramatic one. Write speeds are down, so some shrink has happened. Drives researchers crazy when details are hidden.

resistion
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Re: Proof of 1z
resistion   2/7/2016 9:54:34 PM
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If it is 32 layers, then the channel width should go up quite substantially, maybe >10 nm. The etched hole could be >70 nm but you'd have substract the thicknesses of the ONO, floating gate and tunnel oxide.

GSMD
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Re: Proof of 1z
GSMD   2/7/2016 10:10:14 PM
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On behalf of all the EE Times readers we can file a class action suit to force Micron to reveal all the details. The grounds being mental agony caused! Seriously, I checked with Micron and am yet to get the details. It us not as if the layer count is a state secret.

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